D&D 5E (2014) Use of Investigation

[Psikerlord#]

Just a little question: how do you use the Investigation skill in your games? I've been using it as an analog of 3E Search, finding hidden traps and doors and such. Per the PHB, that's covered by Perception, but Perception is already a really good skill, and Investigation doesn't seem to do much. Thoughts?

Investigation and perception are interchangeable in my game. You can always use whichever you're best at for any kind of spotting/hearing/searching. Works fine.

 

[iserith]

Yes.

If the player says they use the skill to search, they spring the trap.
If the DM ask for a roll to ideas where to search, they just know that the area is a good place to search.



Searching around for something hidden that you can see, hear, smell, feel, or taste is Perception.
Searching around for something you must guess for its location is Investigation.

If you are searching for something using your senses, it's Perception. "I see a foot behind the crate."
If you are searching based on your knowledge and logic, it's Investigation. "The only thing large enough to hide anything major in here is that crate."

I don't see the need to parse the fictional act of searching that much. I prefer deduction of clues and searching for hidden objects as Investigation and Perception respectively, when the action the player describes has an uncertain outcome.

 

[iserith]

Would you use Investigation to give solutions or hints to puzzles and riddles?

Yes, when the goal and approach to solving those puzzles or riddles has an uncertain outcome.

If the PC Indy has to "walk in the name of God", would his Investigation skill help him, is it just straight Intelligence, or does his player Harrison actually have to figure it out for himself?

Harrison chose to figure it out for himself and acted accordingly. He blows it, of course, by choosing the letter "J" and only due to a successful saving throw does he manage not to fall to his death.

Now, Harrison says something like, "I try to deduce what it means to 'walk in the name of God' means based on what my father's journal says and these lettered tiled before me. I can also eliminate 'J' as a possibility..." The DM thinks the outcome is uncertain so he or she calls for an Intelligence (Investigation) check which Harrison passes. The DM tells Harrison that the name of god would be in Latin and that means it starts with an "I." Indy repeats this, then makes the right steps and carries on to confront other deadly perils.

 

[iserith]

The only stumbling block to this very wonderful and awesome way of doing things are players that learned how to play in WOTC editions of the game. The general rules-first approach of these systems impresses upon the player that nothing of consequence or meaning takes place without a die roll and that anything is doable with a high enough result. The formula being -1) find out what skills are applicable, 2) find the characters with the highest modifiers to those skills, 3) have these characters perform the task, 4) rinse, repeat.

Actually interacting with the environment instead of the rules is even trickier when the game is run by a DM who was taught only WOTC D&D. If a die roll as a gatekeeper of anything meaningful happening is ingrained in the DM then players calling out skill checks is the only way anything is happening and thats kind of sad.

I agree. It takes about a session for me to break players of this habit.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I agree. It takes about a session for me to break players of this habit.

Sometimes, it takes even less:

DM: What do you do?
Player: I'm going to roll perception *picks up a die*
DM: Wait a second, that's what you the player might be doing; what is your character doing?
Player: Uh... what?
DM: Your character isn't rolling perception, right? They don't even have a set of dice. You have dice and might get to roll something, but what is your character up to right now?
Player: Oh, he's cautiously walking around the area trying to get a good view of everything present without actually touching or stepping on anything that doesn't look safe, so that he can try to see if any traps are here without setting them off.
DM: Alright, thank you. Go ahead an make a perception check to see if that works out, or gets your character into trouble.

And then the next time I ask "What do you do?" that player knows exactly what I am asking for.

 

[Jester David]

I tend to differentiate Investigate and Perception and testing the deduction power of the mind versus the strength of the senses. Anyone can see the windows on the house, only someone investigating will remember how many there are.

Perception is seeing something far away, straining to hear distant voices, identifying an odd odour, feeling subtle variations in texture, noticing a slight change in temperature, etc. Times when the actual detection is not automatic and not everyone will even notice the details. You're checking how well they perceive things.

Investigation is looking at things that are easily seen, and connecting the evidence. Anyone can see the slight scratch mark on the wall, but Investigation identifies it as the sign of a secret door. Anyone can see the broken glass on the floor, but Investigation reveals it was broken by a single firm object. You're checking how well they interpret the things they perceive.

 

[Li Shenron]

Thanks for the feedback, guys! Looks like I'm not the only one who finds the usages of these skills a little vague.

Would you use Investigation to give solutions or hints to puzzles and riddles? If the PC Indy has to "walk in the name of God", would his Investigation skill help him, is it just straight Intelligence, or does his player Harrison actually have to figure it out for himself?

When I put puzzles and riddles in our games (and I love them!), it is always to challenge the players, not the characters.

But I do allow an Intelligence check for a hint, if the players are stuck.

I haven't thought about allowing an Investigation proficiency bonus to that. I don't see any problem with that. Just don't allow the check in the first place until the players have at least tried seriously to solve the puzzle

 

[Baumi]

Investigation for Disable Trap was mentioned a few times, but this should actually be a roll with the Thief Tool Proficiency.

I like the general Skill-System of 5E, but the Skills themselves have to much overlap or are sometimes not clear.

Perception vs. Investigation is always confusing (I personally like the distinction between the time it take .. one Action vs. some time)
Nature vs. Survival: Many things that are mentioned in Nature are actually Rolls on Survival (Traveling Rolls are also all Survival).
Acrobatics vs. Athletics: It's a bit clearer distinguished in this edition, but many players are still confused when to use which skill.
Performance vs. Musical Instruments: Since you cannot combine both, why should you learn one of you have the other?
Thieves Tools vs. Sleight of Hand/Investigation: Open Looks and disarm Traps look like subsets of the Skills.
Nature/Medicine vs. Herbalism Kit: Shouldn't the Skills allow you to create simple remedies?
.... and many more ...

 

[Psikerlord#]

Investigation for Disable Trap was mentioned a few times, but this should actually be a roll with the Thief Tool Proficiency.

I like the general Skill-System of 5E, but the Skills themselves have to much overlap or are sometimes not clear.

Perception vs. Investigation is always confusing (I personally like the distinction between the time it take .. one Action vs. some time)
Nature vs. Survival: Many things that are mentioned in Nature are actually Rolls on Survival (Traveling Rolls are also all Survival).
Acrobatics vs. Athletics: It's a bit clearer distinguished in this edition, but many players are still confused when to use which skill.
Performance vs. Musical Instruments: Since you cannot combine both, why should you learn one of you have the other?
Thieves Tools vs. Sleight of Hand/Investigation: Open Looks and disarm Traps look like subsets of the Skills.
Nature/Medicine vs. Herbalism Kit: Shouldn't the Skills allow you to create simple remedies?
.... and many more ...

Very true. In many instances I will tell the players they can choose between 2 skills to add to the attribute roll (and indeed I sometimes let them choose between 2 attributes, too). Eg your example of the simple remedy? I would allow a PC to try this with Int or Wis, and add prof if they have Nature, medicine or a healing kit (or indeed an appropriate background like hermit).

 

[Agamon]

Investigation for Disable Trap was mentioned a few times, but this should actually be a roll with the Thief Tool Proficiency.

If you've got that proficiency, sure. And if it makes sense for that particular trap, of course. But Investigation could also work, depending again.

I like the general Skill-System of 5E, but the Skills themselves have to much overlap or are sometimes not clear.

Perception vs. Investigation is always confusing (I personally like the distinction between the time it take .. one Action vs. some time)

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, perception (awareness) and investigation (scrutiny) have different meanings. Time requirements is part of it, but fundamentally, the difference is noticing something vs exploring the workings or details of a thing.

Nature vs. Survival: Many things that are mentioned in Nature are actually Rolls on Survival (Traveling Rolls are also all Survival).

Nature is knowing about nature, survival is doing things necessary to stay alive.

Acrobatics vs. Athletics: It's a bit clearer distinguished in this edition, but many players are still confused when to use which skill.

Acrobatics is about using quickness and nimbleness, Athletics is about strength or vitality.

Performance vs. Musical Instruments: Since you cannot combine both, why should you learn one of you have the other?

One is general performance: singing, oratory, dancing, the other is specifically musical instruments.

Thieves Tools vs. Sleight of Hand/Investigation: Open Looks and disarm Traps look like subsets of the Skills.

Depends what one has access to and exactly what one is doing. It could be one, the other, or either.

Nature/Medicine vs. Herbalism Kit: Shouldn't the Skills allow you to create simple remedies?

Sure, maybe with disadvantage.

.... and many more ...

Rulings instead of rules means the DM can adjudicate such things during play, rather than look up the skills section of the book every time someone wants to do something.