D&D 5E 5e's new gender policy - is it attracting new players?

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seebs

Adventurer
"Things" is really vague. What sort of "things" are we talking about? If there's a negative space wedgie off the starboard bow, I don't think Captain Janeway is going to deal with it differently than Captain Picard just because she's got boobs. If the treasure in the ancient ruin is guarded by a cryptic puzzle, I don't think Lara Croft is going to solve it differently than Indiana Jones just because she's got ovaries. And if a giant is terrorizing the local village, I don't think Bradamante is going to slay it differently than Lancelot just because she's got... well, you get the idea. Typical adventure-genre scenarios are pretty gender-neutral, precisely because they involve the protagonists venturing outside of their own society and encountering unique threats and challenges. So if that's where the focus of the D&D campaign lies, it hardly seems implausible that the PCs' gender is less relevant than it would be in a more social-based campaign.

My experience has been that every sentient creature we have ever found good evidence of (so far, only humans) that has gender has behavioral differences linked to gender. People have different expectations about the actions of men and women, and that does show up in how they handle problems that have no obvious relationship to gender. Not 100% of the time, but often enough that over extended periods it tends to be noticeable.

I'd buy "less relevant" than it would be in a campaign more focused on social things, but "no relevance at all" is just hard for me to make sense of.
 

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melichor

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The Shosuro Acting School would be my favourite but any of the Courtier schools should be able to pull it off.

And if you dont like red then you could try the powder blue Crane option
So not a single male geisha character from the CCG, the RPG or any of the other fluff...
I thought maybe I had missed someone in my absence from the game.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
So not a single male geisha character from the CCG, the RPG or any of the other fluff...
I thought maybe I had missed someone in my absence from the game.

Oh, you want a character that you can play as your PC?

Go for Bayushi Nomen, he is perfect for what you want.
 

melichor

First Post
My experience has been that every sentient creature we have ever found good evidence of (so far, only humans) that has gender has behavioral differences linked to gender. People have different expectations about the actions of men and women, and that does show up in how they handle problems that have no obvious relationship to gender. Not 100% of the time, but often enough that over extended periods it tends to be noticeable.

I would be interested to hear Tia Nadiezja's thoughts on this statement.
 

melichor

First Post
Oh, you want a character that you can play as your PC?

Go for Bayushi Nomen, he is perfect for what you want.
Not a geisha.

But apparently sometimes a female and sometimes a male, so very appropriate to this thread and an example of how gender could be a factor during a game.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Not a geisha.

But apparently sometimes a female and sometimes a male, so very appropriate to this thread and an example of how gender could be a factor during a game.

Who says not a Geisha?

And absolutely an example about how gender does not matter during the game.
 

Tia Nadiezja

First Post
I would be interested to hear Tia Nadiezja's thoughts on this statement.

I honestly don't have many.

Nature vs. nurture is a fairly complex issue, and I'm not entirely sure it will ever be completely resolved scientifically. What I do know is that there are measurable differences between gender-male and gender-female brains, and that trans individuals' brains far more closely resemble those of their identified gender than those of their genetic sex.

The impact of that on behavior is virtually impossible to measure, because social pressures are an incredibly strong component of behavior. Are women naturally more empathic, or do women have to develop more empathy to avoid danger in patriarchal cultures? There's no real way to determine that, especially when individual variation from the norm is also a huge thing. Women in general may tend toward being slightly more empathic, but that woman there might have the empathy of a clay brick.

That's why, even leaving aside moral and ethical questions, it's best to interact with - and to judge - people as individuals.

I honestly sort of expect that transgender identity might link more to proprioception than to anything specifically social - to the sense of the self, as a physical entity. At least in many cases. But that's not even a hypothesis at this point - it's a guess.
 

Hussar

Legend
"Things" is really vague. What sort of "things" are we talking about? If there's a negative space wedgie off the starboard bow, I don't think Captain Janeway is going to deal with it differently than Captain Picard just because she's got boobs. If the treasure in the ancient ruin is guarded by a cryptic puzzle, I don't think Lara Croft is going to solve it differently than Indiana Jones just because she's got ovaries. And if a giant is terrorizing the local village, I don't think Bradamante is going to slay it differently than Lancelot just because she's got... well, you get the idea. Typical adventure-genre scenarios are pretty gender-neutral, precisely because they involve the protagonists venturing outside of their own society and encountering unique threats and challenges. So if that's where the focus of the D&D campaign lies, it hardly seems implausible that the PCs' gender is less relevant than it would be in a more social-based campaign.

Well, let's unpack that a bit shall we?

Take Lara Croft vs Indiana Jones. Now, in the movies (I'm going to compare movie adaptations, mostly because I've never played the games), both Lara and Indie have love interests. But, let's look at the difference - in Indiana Jones, his love interest(s) are all damsels in distress that he needs to swing in and save. In the Tomb Raider movies, Lara Croft's love interest betrays her to get to the Macguffin. The love interests and the dynamics between the protagonist and the love interests are entirely different between having a male or female protagonist, despite the characters being, more or less, the same.

Still think gender makes no difference?

You honestly think that there's no difference in how Janeway is treated and Picard? Janeway is married and wants to get home to her husband. Picard is a confirmed bachelor that never settles down for one woman. And let's add the comparison between Kirk and Janeway and tell me that there's no difference. Kirk has relations (ahem) with anything and everything he meets. Janeway... is married and never gets into any romantic encounters (other than some perhaps subtext with Seven of Nine). Funny how that works. Picard, through the series, does have a number of romantic interests. Kirk has lots. As I recall, Sisko meets and marries (?) during the series. Janeway, for the what, six year run of Voyager, remains chaste through the whole thing.

Still think gender makes no difference?
 

OK. Now, what about: "one or more of these choices does not fit in with the game world as envisioned and-or designed"? Example: if in my world the Gnomish culture as designed (and clearly stated upfront) says only female Gnomes go adventuring and an adventuring male Gnome is likely to be scorned (or worse) if it ever encounters any other Gnomes, do I allow male Gnome PCs or just ban them? And if I do allow them, and the scorn comes, is it then a "don't say I didn't warn you" moment?

In other words, is it wrong to make some PCs culturally or racially harder to play? Some classes (Assassin being the most notable) are already similarly harder to play, by comparison.

As can the philosophy "limitation breeds creativity".

At the start of my current campaign all PCs had to be a) Human and b) of the same ethnicity (Greek-equivalent). I did this intentionally, to set an early tone of what sort of culture the game would be set in and to drive home the fact they were starting in a place where non-Humans weren't always very welcome. What this meant was that if someone had their heart set on playing an Elf right from puck drop they were SOL; they'd have to wait a while. Is this wrong?

Lan-"as soon as the party got out into the field and started turning over characters (at a frightening rate!) I opened it up to other races and ethnicities more like a standard game"-efan


So I'm actually going to pick this one up and try to think aloud about it, because it's a really good and interesting question. I've built a number of cultures that have very aggressive gender norms for both fantasy and science fiction gaming, and I've found them to be very interesting and rewarding to play around with. But they can be very problematic for a few reasons, so I think it probably is helpful to approach them with caution, especially in how you introduce them to players.

Lessons learned from my experience, if what you want is to do art without running off players:

1) Designing against the default social expectations of your own society is helpful. Probably the best and most useful bit of design I did in this vein was for a sci-fi game, where I started from Asian cultural tropes (especially Japanese, because I was familiar with them) and set up a matriarchal society with a slanted birth-rate (more women than men) that embraced bisexual polyfidelity as its its default family model - two to three women and a man as the default household, with one woman traditionally acting in the military sphere, a second as the primary parent and the third in politics/business. The man was very much seen as a valuable resource to be cossetted and kept from doing anything silly and reckless like joining the Star Navy or taking a stressful job - artistic careers and helping professions would be much more in line with his family's needs.

So what did all of that get me? It threw all sorts of default assumptions about life into relief for the players, who were mostly playing outsiders interacting with this culture, and gave them a chance to think about what a very different understanding of things like family, gender roles and gender expectations might look like. It made for a very memorable and striking culture that people seemed very intrigued by. And it got me well away from the kind of reminders of day to day oppressiveness that, say, a hidebound patriarchy of the sort we see all the time in fiction might evoke. This was a culture that was different enough to intrigue without invoking the actual daily problems of people's lives, and that was valuable to me and to them.

2) Avoid universality. This is mainly a tip for helping to avoid alienating players, but it seems to help a lot in making setting design more lively and flexible, too. Avoiding statements like 'all dwarfs believe' or 'all elves have these expectations' can get you out of the trap where the carefully detailed culture you've built up for your game doesn't mesh at all with the expectations of your player(s). In those situations, being able to say "The gnomes of Region X are a rigid matriarchy with these certain practices, but the gnomes of the High Mountains have a very different view" can really open up options. Even better is if you can sit down with your player and do some cultural design work on the idea they have about gnomes/humans/elves/whatever, so that when their character runs into your carefully designed culture, they can respond the way many humans have in foreign countries all through history - with wide-eyed fascination that so many things can be different between people who are so superficially similar. And it really takes pressure off of you in terms of cramming an awkward character concept in - the players who love to be inspired by the setting can draw from your prebuilt cultures, and the ones with firmer ideas can be accommodated (within reason) without disarranging your work too much. So while I don't think that your "all players must be human and from this region" campaign is wrong, per se, I do think that you're asking for a great deal of buy-in from your players up front and I hope you talked about it with them before hand (and, if you didn't, that it managed to go well anyway). That sort of planning can look great on paper and be great with collective consent, but it can also cause a lot of friction if there's not deep trust and familiarity between the group and the DM.

3) Don't punish in an arbitrary way, especially when people know your views. Most of my players know that I can be a bit of a misandrist - my life experiences with men have not been fantastically positive, and that tends to affect my gut level response to them. With that in mind, I try very hard not to put my players in a position where it feels to them like I'm punishing them for deciding to play a male character of a particular race/class/etc. I will go further out of my way to accommodate them in that regard than I might normally, because I'm sensitive to the fact that my first impulse when someone wants to play a female character is "great!" and my first mental reaction when they want to play a male character is "Another one?" If you're running for a diverse table, this kind of self-awareness and a willingness to try to ensure your creative work doesn't resemble a personal soapbox can really pay off.

So "wrong" is a strong word for any of what you're talking about, but "likely to cause you and/or your players problems" is definitely a phrase I might use.
 

Well, let's unpack that a bit shall we?

Take Lara Croft vs Indiana Jones. Now, in the movies (I'm going to compare movie adaptations, mostly because I've never played the games), both Lara and Indie have love interests. But, let's look at the difference - in Indiana Jones, his love interest(s) are all damsels in distress that he needs to swing in and save. In the Tomb Raider movies, Lara Croft's love interest betrays her to get to the Macguffin. The love interests and the dynamics between the protagonist and the love interests are entirely different between having a male or female protagonist, despite the characters being, more or less, the same.
last crusaid Indie has a female love intrest that turns on him...

Still think gender makes no difference?
very little if not none...

You honestly think that there's no difference in how Janeway is treated and Picard?
this one is harder... there is a level of writing difference (both the actors though are above this pay grade so both do a great job with what they are handed...

Janeway is married and wants to get home to her husband. Picard is a confirmed bachelor that never settles down for one woman.
and the difference is married/single... there is no reason picard couldn't be married, so few changes. There is no reason janeway couldn't be single... it's married/single that matters here (and quality of show to be honest.)


And let's add the comparison between Kirk and Janeway and tell me that there's no difference.
lots of diffrences, but you could totally gender flop either one...



Kirk has relations (ahem) with anything and everything he meets. Janeway... is married and never gets into any romantic encounters (other than some perhaps subtext with Seven of Nine).
I don't remember 7 of 9 but I remember Q and the first officer who's name I can't remember having some flirts with her...
Still think gender makes no difference?
yes... because again the character's were not the same... there was a marriage difference...


edit: OK, if I took the orginal star trek trio, and gender swaped any two of them to female (your choice) then did some very minor rewrites to the scripts, updated the mission to modern and did a tech upgrade and gave it to CBS would people like it... (yes there are jerks in the world who would dislike any female captain, ignore the hand full of jerks)

Along those same lines the lara croft movie (with very minor updates) could be a new Indiana jones film...
 
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