• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

D&D 5E Access to Races in a Campaign

Do you restrict the races that your players can choose to play?


I fail to see why random stats would preclude that.

In my current campaign we both rolled random stats in order and determined elements of our character's stories and personalities randomly.

It resulted in great and interesting characters.

I'm sure it did, but while exploring new ground can be interesting, and playing a character concept you've never thought of can be interesting, there are some things that people just won't enjoy. I won't play a chaotic evil character. I won't play a character whose motivations are in that direction. So, if we randomly rolled up characters and my character was essentially a psychopath, I'd just tell the group: sorry, I won't play this.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Because I absolutely, utterly despise being told what story to explore, especially by something without will or motive. I am quite open to suggestions from peers, in the extremely rare event that I don't have a concept already in mind. Suggestions are malleable clay, capable of being molded by other decisions and still leaving me as the principal author of the character.

Truly random stats, none of that wishy-washy "roll and assign" stuff (which is, now that I reread, precisely what you did--strict roll order, that is) deny me that agency. If I really wanted to play a caster, but have all mental scores in the 10-or-less region, I'm SOL. If I want to play an acrobatic Monk or Rogue and get an 8 Dex, I'm SOL. If I roll substantially outside the average of the rest of the party, for better or for worse, then I'm going to feel bad: if better, because my character will outdo and probably outplay the others noticeably, and I'll feel guilty despite having done nothing wrong; if worse, because I'll feel like dead weight holding the party back, and may feel resentful even though I know no one is "at fault" for the situation.

If I have a specific story I want to investigate, and I almost always do, I want to be able to determine it myself. I hate the idea of throwing myself before the randomness of "ability roulette." Give me point buy any day of the week.

You said you didn't want to determine things randomly because you wanted an 'interesting package'.

I think that can be done with randomization. It sounds like what you are saying is that you don't like randomization in character creation because you have a specific concept in mind that you want to play. Sure, that is exactly what randomization denies.

To say that the characters aren't interesting, or in your new post, potentially not effective is not true. There are ways to mitigate that. I like cards because the sum is always the same (or similar).

It's not for everyone but that doesn't mean it is wrong.
 

I'm sure it did, but while exploring new ground can be interesting, and playing a character concept you've never thought of can be interesting, there are some things that people just won't enjoy. I won't play a chaotic evil character. I won't play a character whose motivations are in that direction. So, if we randomly rolled up characters and my character was essentially a psychopath, I'd just tell the group: sorry, I won't play this.

Sure, I think there are good and bad ways to go about it.

I made a thread detailing our experience with it. Check it out if you are interested:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...cters-with-Tarokka-cards-Here-are-the-results

The bit about the randomly rolling a Forest Gnome or a Forest Troll is from 'Fear of Girls'. It's a pretty good web show dealy on Youtube poking fun at RPGs.
 

You said you didn't want to determine things randomly because you wanted an 'interesting package'.

I want to put together an interesting package. It's the "putting together" I wanted to emphasize, the "leveraging" of options, not the interesting-ness. Dice--cards, computer programs, whatever--randomly selecting options from a palette removes me as an author of a character. In my mind, which need not apply to anyone but me, it turns me into merely an observer. I note the existence of a particular set, and find that set assigned to me; my participation is neither required nor pertinent. That's how it makes me feel, because I play no part whatsoever in making it. Much as, for example, I would feel no special attachment to a vehicle randomly assigned to me; it was made by another, without my input, critique, or even awareness. In the course of time, the brute nature of using the vehicle will give me a certain sense of possession, because I would be using it, because it would be a "personal" space (in that odd way that cars, so clearly public-facing, are "personal"), sure. But it would never be as close or as dear to me as a car I carefully selected, modified, and detailed myself (or worked with others to do so, since I lack...pretty much all of the skills necessary to modify a vehicle, mechanically or aesthetically).

Same goes for a character randomly generated. It was generated without my input in even the slightest sense. Its existence (in as much as TTRPG characters "exist") is wholly independent of anything me. It lacks even the sentiment of a gift, vicariously "mine" by being chosen by another with my preferences in mind, and being a physical representation of the relationship between us. It is merely a combinatoric event, which by happenstance was assigned to me; for me, it is barely more evocative than a social security number or the particular swirls of my fingerprints.

I think that can be done with randomization. It sounds like what you are saying is that you don't like randomization in character creation because you have a specific concept in mind that you want to play. Sure, that is exactly what randomization denies.

Which is more or less what my previous statement is trying to clarify: the thing I want to do, putting together an interesting character, rather than happening upon one (or discovering it, if you prefer), is incompatible with the kind of "hard" randomization you described. I'd argue that it's also incompatible with "soft" randomization (e.g. the "roll-and-assign" thing), and yet that method also seems to oppose the kind of thing you (sometimes) want. It undermines me, because it removes agency; it undermines you, when you seek such, because it removes the "surprise" factor, making certain results (a 15+ as the character's prime stat, frex) effectively guaranteed.

To say that the characters aren't interesting, or in your new post, potentially not effective is not true. There are ways to mitigate that. I like cards because the sum is always the same (or similar).

But by doing so, you create precisely the kind of thing that, at least in general, fans of "strict" rolling rail against: cookie-cutters. Having a high stat mandates having a low stat, and vice versa...you just aren't getting the choice of which one it is. Perhaps that doesn't bother you, but it's still departing from genuine, thorough randomness (presumably in the name of "fairness" or "balance"). Any form of mitigating the over- or under-effectiveness of randomly generated characters by its nature must make some part of the character foreknown (non-random, deterministic). To mitigate all dramatic deviation from the mean, you have to constrain the range...which leads, in the card case, to all characters who have at least X for a stat ending up with at most something like 25-X (or whatever the chosen value for 'mirroring' is) for another stat. (In other cases it leads to other things, like a narrow region for acceptable stat values e.g. "only 8-16" or the like.) These things prevent outliers by making true outliers impossible--a strict reduction in randomness, aka characters that are more similar to one another.

If you don't remove the true random variation, you leave open the very real possibility of at least one person being abnormally above or below the party average--and for a 5-person party, binomially speaking, those odds are quite good. You may only have a 5% chance of being 2 standard deviations above or below average individually...but having at least 1 person out of 5 being in that region is just over 22.6%. If, instead, we look at 1 SD above or below, the odds of at least one person being outside that range is 86.5%--and better than 50% odds that at least 2 people will be. That absolutely can lead to observable differences in success between players, especially if one person is 1 SD below and the other is 1 SD above.

So...no, I think you're wrong. If the randomness is genuinely "hard," genuinely open to all possibilities regardless of prior or subsequent outcomes, then it is an unavoidable fact that some results can be noticeably better/worse than the rest. I dislike being in either position, and don't particularly relish the thought of even being in the "average" group while somebody else languishes at the bottom of the heap or rises above the rest (happily or unhappily, doesn't matter). All such situations strike me as unfair, and the only way to "mitigate" it is to abandon the commitment to hard randomness. Perhaps a partial commitment is sufficient to satisfy you, but for me, personally, it appears little better than lip service to randomness while still denying me authorship of my character, and thus sort of worse than true randomness, which at least consistently pursues a goal, even if it's a goal I have no interest in.

It's not for everyone but that doesn't mean it is wrong.

Perhaps my repeated emphasis on my emotional reactions ("I hate..."), my personal abilities ("If I have a specific story..."), and effects being applied to me ("deny me that agency...") was insufficient to make it clear that I was speaking about myself. Your "people like different things! It's not objectively wrong!" rebuttal thus strikes me as clouding the issue.

It is an objective fact that, by surrendering control of these details to a (pseudo)random number generator, you are surrendering your agency with regard to what the character will be. It is no longer your choice, it is dictated to you by something else (dice, cards, computer program, whatever). That some people may enjoy that state, even greatly, has nothing to do with whether or not it happens. It is at best a non-sequitur, and at worst an attempt to paint me as insulting other game styles, when I am only saying that that randomness removes agency. I made no other objective claims than that. All other claims were not only subjective, but purely centered on myself.
 

Same goes for a character randomly generated. It was generated without my input in even the slightest sense.

I think you are jumping to extremes. You can have significant random elements to character creation and still have significant input.

I personally find it a lot more interesting to start with a framework and bring it to life. To make a character out of some flat stats and a couple broad suggestions. I find a lot more creativity in that.

I didn't say that some characters wouldn't be objectively beter or worse. I said that they could all be effective. They can all have their areas of specialty that are unmatched by other party members. 5e does a great job of ensuring character spotlight.

I am not sure what more I can say, you seem to have an extreme view of what random character generation is.

I see that you saw my previous thread that detailed how we made characters using random processes. So I know that you realize that it doesn't have to be in the extreme and that there can be a lot of player agency involved.
 
Last edited:

I want to put together an interesting package. It's the "putting together" I wanted to emphasize, the "leveraging" of options, not the interesting-ness. Dice--cards, computer programs, whatever--randomly selecting options from a palette removes me as an author of a character.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this and other things you've said give me the impression that when you generate a character you've in effect married yourself to your character concept (as in, what the character will be) before even starting the generation process; and want to then as far as you can force the generation process to give you your concept.
In my mind, which need not apply to anyone but me, it turns me into merely an observer. ...

Same goes for a character randomly generated. It was generated without my input in even the slightest sense. Its existence (in as much as TTRPG characters "exist") is wholly independent of anything me. It lacks even the sentiment of a gift, vicariously "mine" by being chosen by another with my preferences in mind, and being a physical representation of the relationship between us. It is merely a combinatoric event, which by happenstance was assigned to me; for me, it is barely more evocative than a social security number or the particular swirls of my fingerprints.
Except it still becomes yours once you give it a personality and bring it to life. Simple game mechanics are but a part (though in some editions an annoyingly big part, to be sure) of what makes a character what it is. The rest is personality - including but by no means limited to alignment and-or background - which is always yours to provide and is (or in my view should be) what distinguishes that character from all the other characters even if mechanically they are all exactly the same!.

Lan-"now that I think about it, randomly rolling alignment could bring some interesting - though sometimes messy - results too"-efan
 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this and other things you've said give me the impression that when you generate a character you've in effect married yourself to your character concept (as in, what the character will be) before even starting the generation process; and want to then as far as you can force the generation process to give you your concept.

"Married" and "force" are strong words, too strong in my book. (Of course, I could be cutting myself unfair slack, I dunno.) I have 2, maybe 3 "stock" character ideas that I like to employ (particularly for my "first real game" with a particular system); I also peruse whatever options are available in a given system and try to develop at least 2 "that would be interesting to play" concepts to keep in my back pocket. I then attempt to find a happy medium between effectiveness (numerical optimization), engagement (the 'Goldilocks zone' of requiring neither too little nor too much thought to play), and narrative (an open-ended adventure and character-growth prompt).

The core that unites the three is the concept. Without the concept, the narrative disappears, the optimization has no point, and the mechanics become mere buttons to push. So, in the sense that I am married to having a concept, sure--but it need not be a specific concept, and even if I do have a specific one, it need not be fixed. All things--concept, narrative, procedure, effectiveness, and even the character generation system itself--can and will be questioned, pushed, and revised when and where appropriate (and, for the system, allowed--since unlike the other parts that is a place where discussion and negotiation with the DM is necessary). If the concept cannot be satisfactorily achieved in the system, I may need to revise or, in extreme cases, even abandon it for one of my others. Or, with DM buy-in, the system may flex to allow what it normally could not; I just prefer to never rely on a DM being willing to do that for a variety of reasons.

It is, in general, trivially easy for me to come up with a character concept (class, race, background/origin, etc.) that I find exciting potential in. Conversely, when I am told what character to play--whether by a person, a roll of dice, or anything else--my inspiration and attachment freezes up. The artificiality of the character becomes primary, and I find it difficult, frustrating, and often unenjoyable to attempt to roleplay such. Context-appropriate limitations that I've already bought into* are perfectly acceptable; they restrict my agency in one area or another, but (in general) do not eliminate it in any area. "Hard" randomness, e.g. "you don't have any say whatsoever in what your stats or race are (and sometimes class or--as you note below, even alignment!), you accept what the dice give you or you don't play" does eliminate agency in any category you apply it to. That's the whole point of it, as I had understood it.

*For an actual-play example, "we're playing a side story of our main campaign for now, since you couldn't make it last week. Following some refugees in this world's equivalent of the Underdark--the slaves you set free in your last session. So you can be a dwarf, goblin, or kobold." I ended up playing Ziit, a heroic goblin Fighter/Barbarian growing from vengeance to being a community-builder. But nobody told me to play a Goblin, or a Fighter, or a vengeance-seeker, or an incredibly persuasive but dim-witted character (high Cha mod, neg Int mod, low Wis). I could easily have chosen a different race (within the limitations set), or a different set of stats; but because it was my choice to go with the stats, race, and class that I did, the character meant far more to me than one shoved my direction.

Except it still becomes yours once you give it a personality and bring it to life. Simple game mechanics are but a part (though in some editions an annoyingly big part, to be sure) of what makes a character what it is. The rest is personality - including but by no means limited to alignment and-or background - which is always yours to provide and is (or in my view should be) what distinguishes that character from all the other characters even if mechanically they are all exactly the same!.

Lan-"now that I think about it, randomly rolling alignment could bring some interesting - though sometimes messy - results too"-efan

And all of those things happen as part of the character actually seeing the light of play. They happen whether I am the character's author or not, hence why my car analogy spoke of the "becoming mine" thing purely via use. That these things always occur means they are independent of whether I have authorship of the character or not. Since it happens no matter what, I still obtain a massive and strict gain from having actual authorship of the character, in addition to being the character's player.

Perhaps, to use an analogy a little closer to the object of comparison: I get no real benefit from "exquisite corpse"-style writing exercises. Even when the phrases are arresting and sharp, my awareness of their (kinda) random origin alienates me from them to the point that I can't successfully use them in my work, poetry or prose. And that's just a phrase or two meant to start a longer work--phrases that will get lost amid the subsequent words. Stats, race, class, etc.? Those things will constantly come back up again, reminding me of my alienation from them, snaring every proverbial step from first to last.

I know this doesn't affect everyone. I'd even, cautiously, say that it doesn't affect most people. But it does affect me--and it's why I just don't do "hard" random characters (and find "soft" random characters a frustrating-but-sort-of-tolerable requirement).
 

[MENTION=5355]Ezekiel[/MENTION] - xp for a well-thought-out reply.

I've no idea at all what you mean by "exquisite corpse" writing exercises, please explain.

An interesting idea sometime for a session where you've nothing else going on would be to generate a character to the basics - a Fighter type would probably be simplest: give it stats, feats and skills if you use 'em (or not, for this purpose the less mechanics the better), level, basic equipment, race (suggest Human) and hit points - and make a copy of the character sheet for each player. Then, at session start hand the sheet to each player with instructions to not share any information on it with any other player. Also tell each player individually ahead of time that their usual character is asleep and having a particularly vivid dream in which it has become the character on the sheet in front of them but the player gets to choose gender, culture (but not any deep involved background, it'd take too long), name, alignment and personality; then run a role-play-heavy one-off in whatever situation you can pull out of your hat with all the players playing (mechanically) the same character and by session's end see how different those characters have become just by personality. It can be an eye-opener just how different characters can get even when mechanics cancel out; and to me these are the important differences.

Lan-"thinking I might try this myself if I end up running a New Year's Eve one-off"-efan
 

I do not, But some races my have a hard time of it, (Half-orc, Drow, Teifling). Others may not fit into the group dynamic, or have skill sets not very useful to the campaign area ( Grugach, Aaracocra).

but for our group, its been years together ( maybe too many since the days of KotB!)
It's usually decided by the party at roll-up what they want to do as a group, classes, races...maybe they want to play monsters who knows... restrictions simply restrict the ability to explore possibilities and have fun, obviously incompatibilities of PCs in the groups dichotomy is the hinging factor as to whether a race or clas would be played/allowed.
 

[MENTION=5355]Ezekiel[/MENTION] - xp for a well-thought-out reply.

I've no idea at all what you mean by "exquisite corpse" writing exercises, please explain.

And some for you as well, for a pleasant conversation. :)

"Exquisite corpse" is a general name for a family of group exercises intended to provide unexpected and evocative results, thus stimulating later, more individual and structured writing. In the simplest case, three or more people take a piece of paper; the first writes a single word at the top, folds it over so it can't be seen, and passes it to the next person. Each person then writes a word and folds the paper again, until everyone has written something; then the paper is unfolded and the resulting string is read. Most such exercises either provide a rule (a "Mad Libs"-style thing, like "The adjective noun adverb verb the adjective noun"), or allow each person to read the previous person's entry before writing their own. The name comes from the (apocryphal) "first" use of the technique by the French Surrealists, who adapted it from a very similar parlor game; the sentence generated was, "Le cadavre exquis boira le vin nouveau," "the exquisite corpse shall drink the new wine."

Being a "mad lib" style sentence-generation system, you can get some distinctly unusual and novel phrases from it, but it's damned hard for me to forget the way they were made, partially because they're often jarring or stilted-sounding.

An interesting idea sometime for a session where you've nothing else going on would be to generate a character to the basics - a Fighter type would probably be simplest: give it stats, feats and skills if you use 'em (or not, for this purpose the less mechanics the better), level, basic equipment, race (suggest Human) and hit points - and make a copy of the character sheet for each player. Then, at session start hand the sheet to each player with instructions to not share any information on it with any other player. Also tell each player individually ahead of time that their usual character is asleep and having a particularly vivid dream in which it has become the character on the sheet in front of them but the player gets to choose gender, culture (but not any deep involved background, it'd take too long), name, alignment and personality; then run a role-play-heavy one-off in whatever situation you can pull out of your hat with all the players playing (mechanically) the same character and by session's end see how different those characters have become just by personality.

Certainly an interesting experiment, though I'm not really much of a DM myself. Given how hard it's been to find a stable, long-running group, I have my doubts about whether I could persuade someone to run it. I would be interested in your results, though, if you do actually run this. Could be neat to get a brief writeup from each of the players describing their character and what they think of it--after play is over, I mean.

It can be an eye-opener just how different characters can get even when mechanics cancel out; and to me these are the important differences.

Lan-"thinking I might try this myself if I end up running a New Year's Eve one-off"-efan

I agree they're important, I just think that, because they'll happen pretty much no matter what, their presence doesn't actually tell us anything about the player's investment. If you cannot avoid such "developed" differences, are they really determinative, or are they merely the "perks of doing business"?
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top