D&D 5E The "more complex" fighter: What are you looking for?

[JohnLynch]

The problem with combat options in place of attacks, is having at-wills that do damage and a status effect doesn't come online until level 5. For a wizard it comes online at level 1.

A persuasive argument AGAINST having status effects and damage at level 1 is that it would be overpowered. However Acid Splash and Ray of Frost demonstrate this is not the case. Acid Splash is a ranged attack that does between 3.5 damage to 7 damage (depending on the positioning of the enemy). Now given that wizards have at least 2 cantrips we can disregard the 3.5 damage and simply go with 7 damage because you would simply use a different spell if there was only a single enemy.

So Acid Splash does 7 damage on average, or 4.9 when you take into account how likely a level 1 wizard is to hit a CR 1 creature. Ray of Frost is another ranged attack and deals 4.5 damage on average, or 3.15 when you take into account how likely a level 1 wizard is to hit a CR 1 creature and it reduces the creature's speed by 10 feet.

This is a reduction of 1.75 damage to get the status effect of a speed reduced by 10 feet, or a damage reduction of 35%.

A fighter with a longbow deals 7.5 damage on average, or (with the ranged fighting technique) 5.85 damage. If you remove the dexterity modifier to damage, the attack gets reduced to 3.6 which is roughly a 35% reduction in damage. Based on the wizard it would be balanced to have this be the case.

So I reject the idea that you must have "attack surge" at will in order to create a fighter that gets to do interesting things other than damage or that giving the fighter interesting things at-will is tantamount to giving him spells.

 

[Gladius Legis]

A persuasive argument AGAINST having status effects and damage at level 1 is that it would be overpowered. However Acid Splash and Ray of Frost demonstrate this is not the case. Acid Splash is a ranged attack that does between 3.5 damage to 7 damage (depending on the positioning of the enemy). Now given that wizards have at least 2 cantrips we can disregard the 3.5 damage and simply go with 7 damage because you would simply use a different spell if there was only a single enemy.

So Acid Splash does 7 damage on average, or 4.9 when you take into account how likely a level 1 wizard is to hit a CR 1 creature. Ray of Frost is another ranged attack and deals 4.5 damage on average, or 3.15 when you take into account how likely a level 1 wizard is to hit a CR 1 creature and it reduces the creature's speed by 10 feet.

This is a reduction of 1.75 damage to get the status effect of a speed reduced by 10 feet, or a damage reduction of 35%.

A fighter with a longbow deals 7.5 damage on average, or (with the ranged fighting technique) 5.85 damage. If you remove the dexterity modifier to damage, the attack gets reduced to 3.6 which is roughly a 35% reduction in damage. Based on the wizard it would be balanced to have this be the case.

So I reject the idea that you must have "attack surge" at will in order to create a fighter that gets to do interesting things other than damage or that giving the fighter interesting things at-will is tantamount to giving him spells.

First of all, I question the need for you to split hairs on what amounts to a mere 20% of 5e's level range, and the part of it that goes by the quickest, at that, but ...

Ray of Frost's status effect is slowing by 10 feet. Meanwhile, the attack options a Fighter gives up a single attack for include Grapple, Shove and Disarm:

• Grapple reduces a target's speed to 0 straight up, which is obviously a more extreme effect than Ray of Frosts's -10 speed reduction.
• Shoving prone grants advantage to every melee attacker next to the target and makes the target attack everyone else at disadvantage. That's a good deal more powerful than Ray of Frost's -10 speed reduction. And if the target stands up, that's a flat half their movement gone that round, which often works out to be considerably more than a 10-foot reduction.
• Disarm, pretty obvious how strong it can be, as long as you still have your one free object interaction that round.

So, your example of Ray of Frost is rather disingenuous in this comparison. A Fighter's special attacks here are easily superior in their effect. Whether they're worth giving up his damage entirely Lv. 1-4 depends greatly on the situation and the enemy, but against a "boss" I would think knocking them prone or (if applicable) disarming them would be a lot more valuable than the 7.5-11 damage he'd do for one round of the combat. Heck, shoving prone's advantage to everyone else might make up the Fighter's lost damage alone.

Of all the status effect cantrips, the one that would help your case the most is Shocking Grasp (can't take reactions), but even then, a prone enemy's OAs are being made at disadvantage (while he's still giving up advantage to everyone around him), or a disarmed opponent's OAs are so weak as to not even be worth mentioning, or a grappled opponent can't use their reaction to move away.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

True, but you could do it on DM's Guild and not go the OGL route. I suspect there are already probably a few there as I type this.

yup... I sold 6 of them so far (http://www.dmsguild.com/product/171070/Martial-Options?filters=45469_0_0_0_0_0)

it has 15 battle master options... 3 I label as extraordinary, and 2 of those could sit right next to the phb one no issue, one is a bit more complex (it requires a bit of gambling), then 6 "mythic" ones that maybe the one that lets you throw a melee weapon could be in a phb line up, but a lot of these are also not combat per say, then 6 out right magic ones (not spells, magic combat focused maneuvers) 2 of those could probably fit the phb, but they have prereq of being a dragonborn or teifling.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

For those of you who want this subclass, what sorts of abilities would this hypothetical complex-fighter have? What would it do that's

1) Not already covered by BM maneuvers, and

2) Not already covered by the additional combat options in the DMG, and

3) Not skill-monkey-related, and

4) Not more appropriately modeled via the magic/spell system?

when you put those restrictions on them, not much...

1 &2 are easy... lots of things aren't covered by BM maneuvers or existing options in the DMG... using them all togather is good, but not great.

3 starts to be the issue, I want to see options for expanded, maybe superhuman skill use, but if we take skill mokey stuff out, then there goes there...

4 is the issue, magic refluffed is a lot of what I want... I want 'go through ressitance (like mountain hammer) I want make extra attacks (like haste) I want healing (warlord 4e or white ravon tactics Bo9S) I want some wuxa options (holcoust cloak and flame blade Bo9S) I want lots of little unque special abilities that a fighter/mage or fighter/cleric has as options but can be used without magic...


I want to make a fighter subclass (or options for battlemaster) that totally break reality... I want the story of what my fighter did as common or at least semi common feats to be things no trained warrior in the real world could do...but things a comic book or movie or novel character might do without him being 'magic spell caster'.


book of 9 swords stances and counters alone give a lot of options... lets look at some good ones

level 1
wind stride is a quick boost of speed...
Burning blade could be remade and still have a lighting or a cold equivalent
Crusaider strike is one of those healing ones
sapphire nightmare blade would have to be overhauled, but both naming and concept are cool
counter charge is a great idea
Hunter's senses are cool, but maybe stepping a bit too much on ranger
sudden leap... I can't belive 'make a jump check as a bonus action that doesn't use your move' isn't in 5e already
flame's blessing and punishing stance could both fit 5e

What are some examples of what you're actually looking for? And I don't mean a vague answer like, "Powers like fighters had in other editions," I mean specific examples. What do you want to be able to do that cannot currently be matched, or at least approximated, by existing 5E rules options?

I just did 1st level, but there is a lot of overlap as you level up...

Baffling defense is a really good one too, make an insight check to dodge an attack could work real well with the battle master 'seeing what's coming'

4e had some good ones too...

warlord had sunder armor that lowered AC
fighter had come and get it



even just improved versions of the PHB ones as you level...

at level 3 I learn parry and ripost... at level 12 I learn how to do both at the same time... a new maneuver that when I am hit I roll my SD and take that much damage off, AND get a free or reaction attack that deals no extra damage from SD or attribute...

now my options look like this... I am attacked by 2 orcs, one misses one hits... I can A) parry the hit and remove 1d10+dex mod damage, B) ripost and attack orc that missed me for 1w+dex+1d10, or C) use this new 'meta' maneuver remove 1d10 damage from orc that hit me and make an attack against him for 1w...

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

I would love to see a zen warrior/jedi type (jedi fighting style not telekinetic/telepathic stuff)

maybe something with investing Superiority dice to emulate stances... then use concentration... but that's just spit balling.

Maybe a class with less die code but more dice (so you can do more but not as much damage)

 

[bid]

I haven't read everything, but you have to be careful with spell-like powers. MC barbarian / fighter could use those powers while raging. So powers like blur, haste, hex, et al. could break balance.

MC is the easiest source of "complex", whatever class features of that archetype must go beyond this.

Another easy source is grabbing features from another class, such as eldritch invocations. Taking monk: deflect missiles, evasion, stillness of the mind, purity of body, timeless body, empty body.

 

[JohnLynch]

First of all, I question the need for you to split hairs on what amounts to a mere 20% of 5e's level range, and the part of it that goes by the quickest, at that, but ...

Ray of Frost's status effect is slowing by 10 feet. Meanwhile, the attack options a Fighter gives up a single attack for include Grapple, Shove and Disarm:

• Grapple reduces a target's speed to 0 straight up, which is obviously a more extreme effect than Ray of Frosts's -10 speed reduction.
• Shoving prone grants advantage to every melee attacker next to the target and makes the target attack everyone else at disadvantage. That's a good deal more powerful than Ray of Frost's -10 speed reduction. And if the target stands up, that's a flat half their movement gone that round, which often works out to be considerably more than a 10-foot reduction.
• Disarm, pretty obvious how strong it can be, as long as you still have your one free object interaction that round.

So, your example of Ray of Frost is rather disingenuous in this comparison. A Fighter's special attacks here are easily superior in their effect. Whether they're worth giving up his damage entirely Lv. 1-4 depends greatly on the situation and the enemy, but against a "boss" I would think knocking them prone or (if applicable) disarming them would be a lot more valuable than the 7.5-11 damage he'd do for one round of the combat. Heck, shoving prone's advantage to everyone else might make up the Fighter's lost damage alone.

Of all the status effect cantrips, the one that would help your case the most is Shocking Grasp (can't take reactions), but even then, a prone enemy's OAs are being made at disadvantage (while he's still giving up advantage to everyone around him), or a disarmed opponent's OAs are so weak as to not even be worth mentioning, or a grappled opponent can't use their reaction to move away.

What you've cited are examples of the combat mechanics everyone (including Paladins and Rangers) can do. These are not examples of something special fighters can do. The question of the thread was "what do you want from a complex fighter?" My post was an answer. The amount of resources a fighter gets, damage + status effect could have been balanced. With the current setup the best you get is a battle aster which is not what everyone wants.

 

[bid]

So Acid Splash does 7 damage on average, or 4.9 when you take into account how likely a level 1 wizard is to hit a CR 1 creature. Ray of Frost is another ranged attack and deals 4.5 damage on average, or 3.15 when you take into account how likely a level 1 wizard is to hit a CR 1 creature and it reduces the creature's speed by 10 feet.

Careful here.

Acid splash is a Dex save, with a wizard DC of 13 and a +2 Dex you save on 11+ and expected damage becomes 3.5.

Ray of frost is a ranged attack, with wizard +3 Int against AC13 you hit on 10+ and expect 2.5 damage.

 

[JohnLynch]

Bid: Wizards get their proficiency bonus to ranged attacks. There's also a chance of Criting.

 

[Savevsdeath]

Bid: Wizards get their proficiency bonus to ranged attacks. There's also a chance of Criting.

I don't see what your point is. A 5% chance to add on average +50% damage to the attack (assuming you get an average damage roll) is not even really worth considering, and when the damage is as piddly as ray of frosts anyway, it's just a nice perk but nothing to write home about. The real usefulness one gets from wizard cantrips is their status effects, not damage. That -10 speed could easily be the difference between life and death for yourself or a party member, whereas a Fighter who wanted to slow down that same enemy has to either blow a standard action to Shove/Trip and thus do NO damage, or happen to be a Battlemaster and expend a very finite resource to do it and some damage. Superiority Dice really needed to be a recharge every round resource, so fighters actually had something interesting to do, but WotC went back on that very cool bit of design early on. That alone would do wonders for the Fighter. It'd still be less exciting than a full-on action hero warrior, but it'd be better than what we have now.