D&D 5E The "more complex" fighter: What are you looking for?

[Mouseferatu]

In other threads, several people have expressed an interest in having a fighter archetype more complex than the battlemaster, perhaps on par with the spellcasters, but not using spells. Maneuvers, stances, martial powers, etc.

I asked this there, but it was threatening to derail the thread, so I figured I'd make a new thread for it.

For those of you who want this subclass, what sorts of abilities would this hypothetical complex-fighter have? What would it do that's

1) Not already covered by BM maneuvers, and

2) Not already covered by the additional combat options in the DMG, and

3) Not skill-monkey-related, and

4) Not more appropriately modeled via the magic/spell system?

What are some examples of what you're actually looking for? And I don't mean a vague answer like, "Powers like fighters had in other editions," I mean specific examples. What do you want to be able to do that cannot currently be matched, or at least approximated, by existing 5E rules options?

(This isn't meant to sound snide. I'm honestly curious.)

 

[Unwise]

I actually have not come across people asking for a more complex fighter. I have come across people asking for a fighter with more options, or referring to them as one-trick-ponies without further elaboration. As far as I can tell, the people who want more abilities for fighters tend to have a mythological or wuxia basis for their vision of the high level classes.

If you apply the litmus test of, could Achilles/Perseus do this? Then I guess that opens up other options. More so if you ask, could Hercules do this? Like picking up enemies and throwing them at other ones in an AE attack. What about the Indian or Chinese equivalents? They got up to some crazy stuff but would be considered plain martials within their mythological context.

I don't see a lot of suggestions for specific lacking features, but I think those the feel the lack do so out of an extension of the Martial vs Magical divide that tends to come into focus at higher levels. You know, the argument that when wizards can open portals in the fabric of reality, why can't a martial grapple a huge creature, or run up a titans leg, or land from 200' that sort of thing. Its about the lens of realism being used on maritals, but not on magicals.

Not something to get into in this topic. I suspect a lot of people with that view of martials would be happier in 4e, where powers existed to use people as human shields, throw them across rooms into other people, throw daggers at 10 people at once etc all without leaving the umbrella of mundane martial.

 

[hejtmane]

I
If you apply the litmus test of, could Achilles/Perseus do this? Then I guess that opens up other options. More so if you ask, could Hercules do this? Like picking up enemies and throwing them at other ones in an AE attack. What about the Indian or Chinese equivalents? They got up to some crazy stuff but would be considered plain martials within their mythological context.

Hercules can sorta of be created Goliath 20 strength Barbarian take bear totem 6th level push drag,lift 2400 encumbered 401-800 Encumbered heavily 801-1200 now at 20th level Barbarian you jump to 24
strength goes to 2880 481-960 961-1440 there you go for a little fun

 

[Jester David]

A lot of proponents for a more complex fighter either mean:
a) a fighter that is balanced with the wizard
or
b) a fighter with powers like 4e

I'm not sure a) is as necessary as the power level of the fighter in terms of damage is closer to the wizard, and they have some utility though tools, extra skills, or feats of strength. And wizards are just less OP in general. Fighters are pretty good as tanks or strikers, and flexible being able to be swashbucklers, archers, or brutes.
That leaves b) and I'm not sure emulating the design of a former edition is desirable. They moved away from that design for a reason; building a subclass to be more like 2e would be equally odd.

That said, there are some people who want a more complex character but also want to play an archtypal fighter. Which is odd, and is like arguing for a simpler wizard for those people who want to play an archetypal wizard without the complexity or spell memorization. Not all classes appeal to every player. That's a feature/bug of most editions of D&D.

A fighter-esque class that is more complex would be interesting. I've said there could be a class that is to the battle master like the wizard is to the eldritch knight. The warlord has been proposed as this, being the full maneuver or 1/2 maneuver class to the BM's 1/3rd maneuver. But with superiority dice text excluded from the SRD this seems unlikely as an option...

 

[Lackhand]

What might be interesting to me are giving fighters a literally greater ability to use terrain: allies deal 1d4 extra damage to enemies you threaten, always and forever. Enemies near windows which you hit have to make str saves or trip out of them. Enemies in difficult terrain get speed 0 when the fighter hits them. You can always grab any enemy that hits you if you take the hit as a critical. All enemies within 10 feet -- 30 feet at 11th level -- make wisdom saves whenever you drop a foe of their challenge or higher. When you are in the clear -- no enemies within 10 feet -- you can move half your speed when an enemy begins their turn.

That sort of stuff, so the fighter is always watching positioning. And specifically for the fighter, because you're the master of tactics.

But actually, I myself am fine the way things are, so I'm just seeing if these trip your requirements

 

[jayoungr]

What might be interesting to me are giving fighters a literally greater ability to use terrain: allies deal 1d4 extra damage to enemies you threaten, always and forever. Enemies near windows which you hit have to make str saves or trip out of them. Enemies in difficult terrain get speed 0 when the fighter hits them. You can always grab any enemy that hits you if you take the hit as a critical. All enemies within 10 feet -- 30 feet at 11th level -- make wisdom saves whenever you drop a foe of their challenge or higher.

Most of that adds complexity to everyone but the fighter, though. The other players roll the extra dice, or the DM makes the saving throws; the player of the fighter just goes on as normal.

 

[mellored]

I would give them options that could be done in place of attacking. Like use 2 attacks to grapple something larger.

As is, fighters are one trick ponues, but that trick is the highest damage in the game, with a solid side of toughness. So they arn't exactly lacking

 

[Lucas Yew]

Some more "mechanically binary effects" (which means "plus effects that just happen when you want it to", unlike/complimentary to skill checks which are shaky in outcome), capable of being put to good use in numerous non-combat situations (dungeoneering, diplomacy, etc).

The battlemaster's Know Your Enemy is a nice, passable example of such features.

 

[Jester David]

The catch with many powers or complexity options is that they actually remove options. If there's a fighter with a power that lets them throw a grappled enemy then that means you shouldn't be able to do so without the power. That's removed from the potential toolbox.
Instead, the fighter just has to be better at doing things already in the rules. But in a rules light system this is hard, as those options are less codified. At best you let them do fancy stuff *and* attack, implying that the fancy stuff can be done in place of an attack or as an action.

A complex 5e fight should be built off the framework of the eldritch knight, replacing cantrips with at-will powers and maybe some lesser powers that recharge on a short rest. (Almost a 1/3rd warlock in terms of balance.) That would give some interesting choices each round, and a variety of powers. (Honestly though... I don't see that playing much different than the battle master.)

Another option could also be some abilities that modify Action Surge, making that more diverse and giving new actions that can be used. Super maneuvers that are the equivalent of four attacks.

That gives a decent mechanical and balance framework to work with. But you'd still need to think of powers AND a story hook with flavour beyond "this is a variant fighter; they hit stuff."

 

[Azurewraith]

Well add in some more maneuvers especially OA attack defensive ones, some stances that have upsides and down sides. This is more martial than fighter but allow things such as fighting in formation with allies granting bonuses.