You can pop in, iserith. I'm mainly going to design the PCs with certain tactics in mind per the usual group I deal with. I want to see how you guys handle my usual group.
D&D 5E Tell me about 5E at 11th level
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
You can pop in, iserith. I'm mainly going to design the PCs with certain tactics in mind per the usual group I deal with. I want to see how you guys handle my usual group.
13th level PC design thread
Pop over to this thread if you want to participate.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?479414-Test-of-High-Level-5E-Design-4-or-5-lvl-13-PCs-for-6-to-8-encounter-adventuring-day&p=6834466#post6834466
Pop over to this thread if you want to participate.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?479414-Test-of-High-Level-5E-Design-4-or-5-lvl-13-PCs-for-6-to-8-encounter-adventuring-day&p=6834466#post6834466
I'm not going to get involved in all the fighting over brokeness as that does not interest me in the slightest.
As to the main subject, I do intend to use pregenerated characters (probably characters made by my local game groups as I test out that level of play and we tweak stuff). And yes, the question of whether 11th level is fun is of primary concern.
because I run open world games at cons, the other important thing is to ask myself what an 11th level sandbox looks like. By that I mean one sort of geared toward that level of play, not necessarily that everything has to fit CR11 precisely. The Valley of tombs was designed for 5th level characters and filled with small dungeons and weird creatures in the wilderness. The Isle of Dread was designed for 7th level characters and filled with dinosaurs, weird science and pirates. I am tempted to give an 11th level sandbox a good does of demons and devils, or possibly dragons. I like the idea of a blight of powerful entities having sort of taken hold over an otherwise "typical" location, so there are towns and NPCs and things, but there is this pall of monstrosities that the PCs are literally the only ones capable of dealing with.
As to the main subject, I do intend to use pregenerated characters (probably characters made by my local game groups as I test out that level of play and we tweak stuff). And yes, the question of whether 11th level is fun is of primary concern.
because I run open world games at cons, the other important thing is to ask myself what an 11th level sandbox looks like. By that I mean one sort of geared toward that level of play, not necessarily that everything has to fit CR11 precisely. The Valley of tombs was designed for 5th level characters and filled with small dungeons and weird creatures in the wilderness. The Isle of Dread was designed for 7th level characters and filled with dinosaurs, weird science and pirates. I am tempted to give an 11th level sandbox a good does of demons and devils, or possibly dragons. I like the idea of a blight of powerful entities having sort of taken hold over an otherwise "typical" location, so there are towns and NPCs and things, but there is this pall of monstrosities that the PCs are literally the only ones capable of dealing with.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
One thing I'd be concerned about with regard to convention play is real time. How much real time do you have to play these sandboxes?
It's on my mind because the adventure I'm designing for DM's Guild is specifically made for one-shot convention play and has been created such that the DM can scale it for time allotted, even during play.
Flamestrike
Legend
For my thought experiment Im using magic items, feats, multiclassing and splat book support (no UA). Like the lions share of campaigns (and indeed all AL and published adventures to date).
Feel free not to participate in that if you want.
You sure about that? Wanna run a poll? Youve just excluded every AL campaign from your 'not how the game runs' argument.
Actually, they're guidelines for how (as a DM) you are to enforce class balance, appropriate challenge difficulty and resource management and to create dramatic tension.
No DM has to follow these guidelines, and as a player you are free to walk out of a campaign where the DM does so but thats an individual decision that has ramifications on how the game is played (if indeed it gets played at all).
Im not dictating anything of the sort. Feel free to nova all you want. IN life you never have all the time in the world to accomplish a task. That report for your boss? Has to be handed in by next monday. The invitations for the wedding need to be posted by a certain date. If youre late for work, bad things happen to you. Even bidding on something on ebay, or getting something on sale down your local shop comes with a time limit attached. There is no military mission in the world that doesnt come with a time limit attached - the target is only going to be in location for a limited time, or your unit wont get resupplied in time, or the enemy will more.
And like it or not, time limits are a stape of heroic fiction. Defusing a bomb while the timer ticks down, destroying the death star before it blows up Yavin, escaping said death star with the princess while being hunted by guards (and defusing the tractor beam generator in time), your daughter/ wife is held hostage and gets killed if you dont agree to work for the evil dictator/ save her in time (Commando/ Taken), Saurons agents will find you and Gondor falls, etc etc etc
Time pressures are a thing, both in real life and in heroic fiction. Having a dummy spit when the DM introduces them into the campaign (and for good reason) and refusing to play the game is your choice, and youre entitled to it, but its a step too far for mine.
Seeing as your adressing me in my capacity as referee, policer of balance, fun for all players, designer of encounters and planner of adventures and rules adjudicator, I would explain to you as a friend and fellow player my responsibilities as game referee and adventure designer in creating adventures for all the players that are balanced between the players, challenging and carry a level of dramatic tension.
I would explain that not every adventure has a time limit attached, but they are vital mechanics in 5E to achieve those three things (encounter challenge, class balance and dramatic tension) so they will feature in my campaign from time to time.
If you still disagreed you would be more than welcome to walk out the door, taking your dice and character sheet with you. Heck I'd probably show you the way out myself.
If it boiled down to your character not wanting to participate in the adventure hook for character related reasons, then thats a different story.
Again, I would explain to you to expect to be prepared to ration your resources over 6-8 encounters per long rest, with around 2 short rests granted over that period. I stick to that paradigm around 50 percent of the time. Some adventures will be shorter (a single encounter in an adventuring day, or even entirely devoid of combat encounters featuring just riddles, or social challenges or whatever) and a rare few might even be longer.
If only reality or fiction was like that and time was never an issue.
Presumably I know my players, and their characters. If there is a LG Paladin in the party with the bond 'I am a sucker for a damsel in distress' then boom. I can use my princess hook.
If my party features a bunch of amoral monsters, then perhaps I can tempt them with a get rich quick scheme (that turns out to be nothing of the sort - as they inevitably are).
This gets down to a question of hooks for an adventure, which is a very different question of the presence of time limitations.
5E is not the game for you then. Rulings not rules remember.
Ive been DMing evil parties for 30 years. A well crafted evil PC has motivations beyond moustache twirling and just being a prick. In 5E this will (at a bare minimum) be represented by flaws and bonds. Your evil Vengance paladin is almost certianly on a quest for vengance against someone. Your evil wizard who was thrown out of wizard college for necromancy will jump at the chance to gain revenge on his former collegues who scorned him. Etc. Crap - even the lure of easy wealth or power will tempt almost everyone.
Again - youre conflating a rather valid complaint of 'my character wouldnt buy this adventure hook' with 'I as a player dont like having to stretch my resources over adventuring days of 6-8 encounters for any of my characters ever'. These arguments are not the same thing.
Flamestrike
Legend
Yep.
As an example, last weekend I ran 7 slots (28 hours) of my Return to the Isle of Dread sandbox. One slot flowed into the next (as opposed to each being a distinct "adventure") and specific player retention from one slot to the next was probably 50%, with most players plaing at least 3 out of the 7 slots.
ThirdWizard
First Post
I find it great fun, but I just go wild in adventure design. Just about every encounter is Deadly+, and boss encounters are Deadly++. Effects that can be neutralized or reversed run rampant that help the enemies and hinder the PCs. I just throw stuff at them and expect them to either be able to handle it or run.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
That's a lot of hours of content! I would probably go with your idea of involving fiends. An escape from the Lower Planes to Sigil in the style of Planescape would be a lot of fun and would allow you to vary locations from session to session. The scope would also easily provide the context to include new players at the table. Create like one hexmap for a given Lower Plane which you can use for each session. Each hexmap leads to two other Lower Planes you have prepared. Each plane has its own weirdness, restrictions, environmental hazards - and boons if you embrace evil.
jodyjohnson
Adventurer
After my group fell apart and I started DMing AL and I get many more of these. I find it quite refreshing.
