Perhaps. I'm ok if you want to try running it with the known parameters making all the rolls. I think I've described the tactics fairly well and it should be easy for you to roll it out given your knowledge of the map, using it as advantageously as possible for the archer and bard. I might take a crack at this tomorrow if I get some free time just to see how it goes given you have described your tactics fully. I trust you to play the characters and monsters as effectively as possible and engage in honest discourse to see how my tactics play out. I will do something similar playing the giants as ruthlessly as possible. I always like to be ruthless at higher level because it's the only way to push the PCs.
D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day
- Thread starter iserith
- Start date
Perhaps. I'm ok if you want to try running it with the known parameters making all the rolls. I think I've described the tactics fairly well and it should be easy for you to roll it out given your knowledge of the map, using it as advantageously as possible for the archer and bard. I might take a crack at this tomorrow if I get some free time just to see how it goes given you have described your tactics fully. I trust you to play the characters and monsters as effectively as possible and engage in honest discourse to see how my tactics play out. I will do something similar playing the giants as ruthlessly as possible. I always like to be ruthless at higher level because it's the only way to push the PCs.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
For funsies, these are the suggestions/feedback I gave to Flamestrike on Encounters 1 & 2:
Some snowy terrain in this scene can aid the wolves, especially if the PCs enter somewhere between the room where the giants are such that if the PCs hear the giants, they might not notice the wolves hidden behind them before it's too late. And since the spellcasters are likely to be in the back ranks of the marching order, this synergizes with Gorbarth's tactic of having the wolves take down obvious spellcasters. The snowy terrain might be considered a situational advantage for the enemies, however, which would increase difficulty by one step. I personally wouldn't consider it a big enough deal to rise to that level, but others might. If it is seen as a situational advantage that steps up difficulty, then you may as well go all in and have it be magical snow that empowers cold magic and other effects. When the winter wolves are standing in the snow, their breath weapons are more powerful, imparting disadvantage to the targets' saves.
You mention a pit being removed, but I would consider keeping it in there and making it about 30+ feet deep. Then I would change Gorbarth's axe to one where it either shoves on a successful hit or gives him advantage on ability checks related to shoving. Maybe make it an oversize maul or greatclub and call it Bully's Bludgeon or something like that. Knock the melee guys into the pit so they lose a turn or more getting out. Maybe put the scroll of telekinesis down there as a booby prize. Since the pit can be used by either side, it doesn't increase difficulty. The giants' height might make it easier for them to climb out, however.
For the social interaction component, I would consider making any end to hostilities be contingent upon the PCs and the giants taking a blood oath not to mess with each other. This ritual act costs each PC a hit die, but guarantees the frost giants will not double cross them lest they draw the ire of their gods. It both fits the theme of the frost giants and drains some resources.
The battle with the death slaads seems interesting. The heavily obscured nature of the place will hamper the ranged characters, but I imagine they'll have races with darkvision for ranged PCs. I would suggest that the slaads are at the top of a steep incline that poses a difficulty traversing (perhaps it's covered in horrible slime). A rusted lever somewhere in the starting area creates steps on the incline which avoids the slippery climb, but it requires great strength or some skill with tools to make it work. The incline might be seen as a situational advantage for the enemy, but the guidelines say if the PC also have an advantage, they cancel each other out. So I would suggest providing a couple areas of rubble which provide cover down where they enter.
This setup will synergize with cloudkill which flows downhill, plus that spell's heavy obscured condition means the ranged guys are shooting blind. Few characters are also proficient in Con saves. Fireballs follow. I would suggest having one slaad visible, but shapechanged into a "helpless" little girl who is scared of some lurking monster and has valuable information to share about the metal man elsewhere in the dungeon if only she weren't so scared. This sets up some potential social interaction. I might even put her down where the PCs come in while the invisible slaad lurks up the incline behind the statue and offer characters the opportunity to take disadvantage on their own save in order to protect the little girl from cloudkill/fireball damage. How delicious it will be when the players are sacrificing resources to save her only to see her shapechange into a slaad and tear into their back ranks!
Some snowy terrain in this scene can aid the wolves, especially if the PCs enter somewhere between the room where the giants are such that if the PCs hear the giants, they might not notice the wolves hidden behind them before it's too late. And since the spellcasters are likely to be in the back ranks of the marching order, this synergizes with Gorbarth's tactic of having the wolves take down obvious spellcasters. The snowy terrain might be considered a situational advantage for the enemies, however, which would increase difficulty by one step. I personally wouldn't consider it a big enough deal to rise to that level, but others might. If it is seen as a situational advantage that steps up difficulty, then you may as well go all in and have it be magical snow that empowers cold magic and other effects. When the winter wolves are standing in the snow, their breath weapons are more powerful, imparting disadvantage to the targets' saves.
You mention a pit being removed, but I would consider keeping it in there and making it about 30+ feet deep. Then I would change Gorbarth's axe to one where it either shoves on a successful hit or gives him advantage on ability checks related to shoving. Maybe make it an oversize maul or greatclub and call it Bully's Bludgeon or something like that. Knock the melee guys into the pit so they lose a turn or more getting out. Maybe put the scroll of telekinesis down there as a booby prize. Since the pit can be used by either side, it doesn't increase difficulty. The giants' height might make it easier for them to climb out, however.
For the social interaction component, I would consider making any end to hostilities be contingent upon the PCs and the giants taking a blood oath not to mess with each other. This ritual act costs each PC a hit die, but guarantees the frost giants will not double cross them lest they draw the ire of their gods. It both fits the theme of the frost giants and drains some resources.
The battle with the death slaads seems interesting. The heavily obscured nature of the place will hamper the ranged characters, but I imagine they'll have races with darkvision for ranged PCs. I would suggest that the slaads are at the top of a steep incline that poses a difficulty traversing (perhaps it's covered in horrible slime). A rusted lever somewhere in the starting area creates steps on the incline which avoids the slippery climb, but it requires great strength or some skill with tools to make it work. The incline might be seen as a situational advantage for the enemy, but the guidelines say if the PC also have an advantage, they cancel each other out. So I would suggest providing a couple areas of rubble which provide cover down where they enter.
This setup will synergize with cloudkill which flows downhill, plus that spell's heavy obscured condition means the ranged guys are shooting blind. Few characters are also proficient in Con saves. Fireballs follow. I would suggest having one slaad visible, but shapechanged into a "helpless" little girl who is scared of some lurking monster and has valuable information to share about the metal man elsewhere in the dungeon if only she weren't so scared. This sets up some potential social interaction. I might even put her down where the PCs come in while the invisible slaad lurks up the incline behind the statue and offer characters the opportunity to take disadvantage on their own save in order to protect the little girl from cloudkill/fireball damage. How delicious it will be when the players are sacrificing resources to save her only to see her shapechange into a slaad and tear into their back ranks!
Azurewraith
Explorer
Funsies FUNSIES
ING FUNSIES this is a serious char op thread no funsies allowed!Interesting stuff I all ways enjoy looking into the minds of other dms
I wouldn't worry too much about the snow. Now the pit with the club would have been a serious advantage. Melee types knocked into a pit would take a few rounds to get out, more if they missed climb checks. I certainly wouldn't let them climb out without serous climb checks if the pit was steep. I'm not sure why they would have this prepared given the area is a cave or why the pit would be in there. This seems like something tossed in that doesn't make sense within the context of the adventure. I'm glad Flamestrike decided against this one. The cave is a temporary base for Frost Giant raiders. Not a lair they've set up to their advantage with a magic item that can take advantage of it. If you're going to use Frost Giants in the same fashion as random orcs with dire wolves, then don't put too many bells and whistles in the encounter. Keep it simple like a low level party finding some orc raiders with wolves.
Would you really have players with insufficient Insight to determine something is wrong with the little girl? My players would not interact with her until the room was cleared and she had been vetted using Insight to determine if she is telling the truth. Experienced players stopped falling for lost little girls and wounded people laying in horrible places ages ago unless you have a substantially high Deception. I imagine you would give one of the death slaad a substantial Deception skill?
I thought about doing this as a DM myself at first. Then I decided it likely wouldn't work given PCs would use Insight to vet the little girl and likely quickly determine she is off. Same with a wounded person pretending to be an adventurer that had failed. Insight is one of those never leave home without it skills.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
It doesn't seem all that unlikely to me that this giant would have a weapon that knocks people around. It sounds very giantish to me.
At 13th-level an 18-Str PC with training in Athletics (or 18 Dex and Acrobatics) will have a fair shot of resisting the shove. Inspiration or Bardic Inspiration can help with that. There's also no guarantee that a PC is even near enough to the pit to be shoved in. Further, the giant has to use its Attack action to make the attempt which gives up a lot of damage potential. Finally, the PCs might have access to push creatures around themselves e.g. thunderwave or a warlock's repelling blast.
You speak of "using Insight" like "using a hit die." Without sufficient interaction to actually determine something is amiss with the "little girl," attempts to discern her true intention or nature is a fail, no roll, in my view. It takes time to figure this stuff out. "There's a cloud of poisonous mist rolling down the slimy slope and an ominous croaking coming from somewhere behind it. The little girl coughs and cries 'My eyes are burning!' as she tries to cover her face in [wizard's] robes. What do you do?"
I fully expect the players to be suspicious, so I'm going to put that little girl right up in their grills and see what they do about her in the face of other dangers. That's an interesting scene in my view, one that could play on personality traits, ideals, bonds, or flaws.
So this would be a general grapple attempt. I thought you were talking about a magic weapon that did this as part of the giant's normal attack routine. Still glad Flamestrike decided against it. Doesn't seem to fit the type of encounter this is where the giants are using this as a temporary raiding lair without any bells and whistles for additional danger.
What do I do when the world has 4 hours to be saved and I'm not sure of the opposition? I watch a little girl die imagining that I'm saving a million other little girls. I don't have time to concern myself with one person in harm's way. If I'm good, I ask for forgiveness later. If I'm neutral, I made a calculation that I think correct. If I'm evil, I don't give a flying damn. I'm saving the world so I can save myself.
Insight very much be a passive check if the slaad is trying to deceive us. If the slaad has no Deception, he has no idea how to emulate a lost, hurt little girl. Part of the Deception skill is knowing how to pull off the roll you are trying to convince the observers of. I see no reason a slaad with no Deception skill would have this skill set unless you altered the slaad. Absent the ability to deceive the party that he is a little girl, I make detection an automatic passive check that something is off. My 13th level players are experienced adventurers that have probably dealt with deception numerous times. They would pick up on any issues same as if you were watching a James Bond movie and he automatically picks up on the waiter that doesn't fit or the cop who knows the guy with the concealed gun is about to rob the place. This is a difference in how we view the characters from a DM's perspective. I definitely view 13th level PCs going against a polymorphed slaad with no Deception as picking up the slaad's inability to be deceiving as a near automatic with a passive Insight check. I would only require a roll if the slaad rolled well, likely giving advantage for appearing as a little girl, then allow a role for interaction if the passive check did not succeed.
My players are James Bond, not Mr. Nobody having to make checks when their natural skill should be picking things up.
It could. A good party with low insight or if the slaad rolls high on deception should have problems. We differ on allowing a passive insight check. I would definitely allow it. Adventurers should be picking up on danger passively because that is part of the job, just like superheroes and action stars.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
It might be just such a magic item. I left that open as a possibility. I still don't think it raises the difficulty a step.
I don't follow.
All fine choices. The "little girl" is still all up in your ranks unless you do something about it. As well, as I said in my feedback, the little girl would tip that she has valuable information about a future threat the PCs may face. Let her die and lose the potential advantages that information could bring.
That's not a ruling I would make. Passive Insight would apply if the PCs are engaged in a task to discern the intentions or nature of a creature by observing body languages and mannerism on a repeated, ongoing basis. That's going to take time and that cloudkill is flowing closer every round...
Different story if I was running D&D 4e though. I'd side more with your ruling here.
You don't need to have proficiency in Deception to deceive. It does, however, make you more successful on average when you actually have to make a Charisma check involving deception. I would use the Charisma check to set a DC for the characters if they decided to take some time to suss out the truth about this little girl. The cloudkill rolls toward them at 10 feet per round. Take advantage if you spend time interacting up until the cloudkill is almost on top of you. Some interesting choices here and lots of drama.
I believe it would. Automatic grapple attempts to knock prone to gain advantage on an attack or knock someone into a pit that does at least 3d6 damage is a substantial hazard, especially as part of their normal attack routine.
The giants are not prepared. This is a temporary raiding lair. Yet you have a pit in this lair and a weapon specifically made to take advantage of this pit, in a temporary lair. It doesn't fit the situation described by Flamestrike. That would be something you found in a giant lair the giant's had set up to take advantage of the item they have, not something you would find on random giant raiders using a temporary lair.
I don't now how else to put it other than it seems too forced like the DM is trying too hard to make things hard.
Passive Insight should work like Passive Perception. They can spot deceptions without having to roll. Insight is perfect for passive checks and very much fits the cinematic nature of D&D where action stars and heroes regularly pick up on deceptions that others barely notice without putting any effort into doing so.
No, you don't. But to fool heroes of the status of D&D adventurers, you should have to be very good at deception or they see through it every time. That is why I use Passive Insight because it fits the cinematic nature of 5E. We'll have to differ on this one. In 3E, I let players make checks as soon as the person attempted to deceived because it was an oppose check. In 5E I consider Deception an opposed check against the Passive Insight of a PC not actively seeking to detect Deception. PCs are heroes. They should pick up on that stuff just like perceiving a pit or the like.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
Again, it only matters if the PCs go by the pit - their own choice.
You seem to assume here that the giants created the pit. I assume it was there long before the giants ever turned up.
Passive Perception isn't "always on" either in my view. It applies to uncertain outcomes related to when the PCs are keeping watch for threats and aren't doing something distracting. In the case of the PCs entering a dangerous situation, it's safe to assume the PCs are keeping watch for threats. Determining the true intentions of a creature, however, requires observation of mannerisms and behavior, something that takes time.
I would say your rulings make these two proficiencies too powerful and remove the meaningful decision-making to character creation rather than something to decide during play. But it also sounds like your players ask to make skill checks which is another difference in our games. Mine cannot. (Though, again, if we were talking D&D 4e, I'd be singing a different tune.)
BoldItalic
First Post
If you can have Passive Insight as an always-on, can I have Passive Intimidation as an always on? Can my character with a PI of 18 swagger around scaring away every monster with a Wis less than 18, on the grounds that he looks the part? We have a result! This adventure is a cake-walk.
Or we could respect [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION] as the DM and just confine ourselves to talking about how we would play as players and maybe discover whether or not our play styles would be successful in that context.
Does that seem fair and reasonable?
Or we could respect [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION] as the DM and just confine ourselves to talking about how we would play as players and maybe discover whether or not our play styles would be successful in that context.
Does that seem fair and reasonable?
