D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

[FormerlyHemlock]

I'd like to hear how others might have run the battle or the PCS. I'll leave a little time to talk before discussing travel and starting encounter 2.

Encounter 2 will be much tougher and require more resources. The terrain advantages and abilities of Death Slaad will tax the party heavily. AoE damage dealers almost always tax a party more than single target damage dealers.

Given the crowded conditions, I would have approached the battle slightly differently: send a bunch of (Inspiring Leader-enhanced) summoned Giant Owls through the Teleportation circle first with orders to spread out throughout the whole room while readying a Grapple against any creature which approached them, followed by PCs. In fact, sending ahead a scout followed by immediate dispersal should be standard operating procedure for any travel through a chokepoint like a teleportation portal or dimensional vortex. Sixteen 10'x10' giant owls in a checkboard pattern (with 37 HP each) should clog the space enough that the giants can't get through, nor the wolves. Then you just kill the giants with ranged attacks, or more hopefully, negotiate their exit without violence when they see how outmatched they are. If it comes to a fight, you may lose a few owls or a few HP, but to a first approximation the only resources you're spending on this encounter are (1) 5th level slot to cast Teleportation Circle, (2) 5th level slot to cast Conjure Animals, (3) Thirty minutes of exhortation time, (4) a bunch of arrows.

This SOP of immediate dispersal will help against the Death Slaads too.

I gather there's enough travel time that you won't still have the original batch of owls available any more (2 hours travel time, I hear? Can't see the original post) so it'll cost you another spell slot to get more meat shields, which is too bad, but it's still pretty cheap. (If you knew in advance that there were only going to be a bunch of Frost Giants in the first encounter you probably would only cast Conjure Animals III, since V is overkill, but you don't know that so you'd blow a 5th level slot in both cases.)

Even if the Death Slaads get super lucky and hit four PCs with 60 HP of fire damage each (poor dispersal plus good initiative plus failed save plus good damage rolls plus no Counterspell from PCs) that's still only 240 HP of damage, which is equivalent to a single Extended Aura of Vitality from your healer if you optimized healing. And besides, only 42 HP per PC is real HP damage, since each PC has 18 temp HP.

Conclusion: if your DM likes to "start the encounter" with the party in poor tactical position (clumped for AoE), the Death Slaads will be annoying, but still not that expensive to deal with.

 

[Azurewraith]

Given the crowded conditions, I would have approached the battle slightly differently: send a bunch of (Inspiring Leader-enhanced) summoned Giant Owls through the Teleportation circle first with orders to spread out throughout the whole room while readying a Grapple against any creature which approached them, followed by PCs. In fact, sending ahead a scout followed by immediate dispersal should be standard operating procedure for any travel through a chokepoint like a teleportation portal or dimensional vortex. Sixteen 10'x10' giant owls in a checkboard pattern (with 37 HP each) should clog the space enough that the giants can't get through, nor the wolves. Then you just kill the giants with ranged attacks, or more hopefully, negotiate their exit without violence when they see how outmatched they are. If it comes to a fight, you may lose a few owls or a few HP, but to a first approximation the only resources you're spending on this encounter are (1) 5th level slot to cast Teleportation Circle, (2) 5th level slot to cast Conjure Animals, (3) Thirty minutes of exhortation time, (4) a bunch of arrows.

This SOP of immediate dispersal will help against the Death Slaads too.

I gather there's enough travel time that you won't still have the original batch of owls available any more (2 hours travel time, I hear? Can't see the original post) so it'll cost you another spell slot to get more meat shields, which is too bad, but it's still pretty cheap. (If you knew in advance that there were only going to be a bunch of Frost Giants in the first encounter you probably would only cast Conjure Animals III, since V is overkill, but you don't know that so you'd blow a 5th level slot in both cases.)

Even if the Death Slaads get super lucky and hit four PCs with 60 HP of fire damage each (poor dispersal plus good initiative plus failed save plus good damage rolls plus no Counterspell from PCs) that's still only 240 HP of damage, which is equivalent to a single Extended Aura of Vitality from your healer if you optimized healing. And besides, only 42 HP per PC is real HP damage, since each PC has 18 temp HP.

Conclusion: if your DM likes to "start the encounter" with the party in poor tactical position (clumped for AoE), the Death Slaads will be annoying, but still not that expensive to deal with.

Isn't there a range limit on conjure that would break due to portal? My books are upstairs and I just ate.

 

[Lord Twig]

Here's the final round for my group on the first encounter.

Round 5

The fighter is down and has to make a Death Save, which he fails.

The Giant attacks the wolf figuring that it does a lot of damage and it is easier to take out. The cleric uses another flare of warding to protect the wolf. The giant hits once and misses once for 30 damage to the wolf, which now has 2 hit points left.

The wizard casts Chill Touch, the rogue moves in for a Sneak Attack, the cleric hits with a Spiritual Hammer and Sacred Flame and finally the Ranger finishes off the giant with one last hit (didn't even need the two attacks from the wolf).

They stop the bleeding on the fighter (who failed a second save before they could) and assess damage.

222 damage combined damage was dealt that needs to be healed.
Spell slots:
Cleric - one 2nd level
Wizard - one 1st and one 3rd level
Ranger - none
Other resources:
Cleric 2 out of five uses of Warding Flare
Wizard - 5 points from Arcane Ward

 

[BoldItalic]

Good use of spells to escape there be interesting to see how using a 5th lvl slot to save HP works out

Yes, it's a trade-off. How many HP is a 5th-level slot worth? Answer: it depends who's taking the hits

I think it might have occurred to the Wizard that if he didn't do something quick, the giant was going to kill him next round - he couldn't take another 45 damage. And a 52% chance of surviving is a lot better than 100% chance of dying

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Isn't there a range limit on conjure that would break due to portal? My books are upstairs and I just ate.

In 5E there are no limits on range for spell maintenance, only initial casting.

 

[Celtavian]

Given the crowded conditions, I would have approached the battle slightly differently: send a bunch of (Inspiring Leader-enhanced) summoned Giant Owls through the Teleportation circle first with orders to spread out throughout the whole room while readying a Grapple against any creature which approached them, followed by PCs. In fact, sending ahead a scout followed by immediate dispersal should be standard operating procedure for any travel through a chokepoint like a teleportation portal or dimensional vortex. Sixteen 10'x10' giant owls in a checkboard pattern (with 37 HP each) should clog the space enough that the giants can't get through, nor the wolves. Then you just kill the giants with ranged attacks, or more hopefully, negotiate their exit without violence when they see how outmatched they are. If it comes to a fight, you may lose a few owls or a few HP, but to a first approximation the only resources you're spending on this encounter are (1) 5th level slot to cast Teleportation Circle, (2) 5th level slot to cast Conjure Animals, (3) Thirty minutes of exhortation time, (4) a bunch of arrows.

This SOP of immediate dispersal will help against the Death Slaads too.

I gather there's enough travel time that you won't still have the original batch of owls available any more (2 hours travel time, I hear? Can't see the original post) so it'll cost you another spell slot to get more meat shields, which is too bad, but it's still pretty cheap. (If you knew in advance that there were only going to be a bunch of Frost Giants in the first encounter you probably would only cast Conjure Animals III, since V is overkill, but you don't know that so you'd blow a 5th level slot in both cases.)

Even if the Death Slaads get super lucky and hit four PCs with 60 HP of fire damage each (poor dispersal plus good initiative plus failed save plus good damage rolls plus no Counterspell from PCs) that's still only 240 HP of damage, which is equivalent to a single Extended Aura of Vitality from your healer if you optimized healing. And besides, only 42 HP per PC is real HP damage, since each PC has 18 temp HP.

Conclusion: if your DM likes to "start the encounter" with the party in poor tactical position (clumped for AoE), the Death Slaads will be annoying, but still not that expensive to deal with.

So your party would have a druid or a bard that took conjure animals with Magical Secrets. I didn't take that with my bard and none of my other classes have it. It would be interesting to see you roll this out with a party given your heavy use of summoning and animated creatures. Your tactics involve heavy use of minions, which is a different type of optimization than I've been seeing. I have wanted to see how minion optimization works versus the environment.

 

[Celtavian]

As DM fiat, I would let you run to the Mountain in an hour (LotR style) instead of walking there in 2.

Would call for a Con [athletics] check at a DC of 10 or suffer a level of exhaustion though.

I'll give it a shot. I love that run in the books and even the movies weren't bad. So our group once the cave is clear and after quick checking the giants for healing potions or other quickly useful items leaves the gold. Once outside the cave, Jubali smiles, "You think your stubby legs can keep up, Seebo and Dom?"

Dom nods, "Maybe not keep up, but I'll keep a close enough pace not to slow us."

Seebo starts running.

Rolls:
Jubali: +8 Roll: 7=15
Dom: +4 Roll: 10=14 (A little worried about Dom, but he's a dwarf. It's just too weird for a dwarf to become exhausted by an hour of running...unless he's a really fat dwarf like Bombur)
Seebo: +3 Roll: 14=17 (This was the one I was worried about. The little Urchin managed it)
Ryken: +8 Roll: 15=23
Tim: +8 Roll: 6=14

So due to DM Fiat, we have saved an hour. Very kind of you, Flamestrike.

 

[Lord Twig]

Clean up
Cleric casts Pray of Healing for 15 points.
Short rest to use Hit Dice.
Fighter: 12d10+36=100
Ranger: 1d10+2=9
Wolf: 7d8+7=35
Wizard uses Arcane Recovery to get back one 5th level slot and 2 1st level slots.

Fred (Fighter) 121 -6
Nightflower (Rogue) 94
Malloren (Cleric) 94
Ceric (Wizard) 93 +28 arcane ward
Bel (Ranger) 108 -4
Cooper (Wolf) 52

I’m going to switch to character names from now on.

Malloren treats Fred’s wounds and gets him back up on his feet. She then calls everyone together and casts Pray of Healing, which takes 10 minutes, but everyone agrees it is worth the time. This brings Malloren and Nightflower to full health. They then spend another hour letting Fred recover. Bel is doing pretty well after the healing spell, but she spends the hour tending to Cooper and resting a bit herself. Malloren stands watch while Nightflower does some scouting around.

Nightflower finds the Telekinesis scroll. Thanks to Expertise and Reliable Talent her minimum rolled Perception check is 22. She also collects all of the gold (500gp) and the giant’s ring (500gp). If she can get the magic axe into her bag of holding, she’ll take that too (it’s not nailed down afterall). If not she sighs and leaves it.

Nightflower then stealthily leaves the cave to scout ahead. Her Stealth check is 26 (rolled an 11, minimum is 25). She sees the great rift where the volcano once stood and reports back. After some discussion they decide they need to make up for lost time. So they are going to run for it.

Con checks:*
Fred 17+8=25
Nightflower 13+2=15
Malloren 17+7=24
Ceric 13+3=16
Bel 6+7=13
Cooper = He’s a wolf and I’m not going to roll for him. (He would have failed btw.)

* I rolled for these before I looked up the penalty for exhaustion. Disadvantage on all ability checks is pretty severe. If I had known I might not have attempted it. But since I already rolled, I'll keep it.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

So your party would have a druid or a bard that took conjure animals with Magical Secrets. I didn't take that with my bard and none of my other classes have it. It would be interesting to see you roll this out with a party given your heavy use of summoning and animated creatures. Your tactics involve heavy use of minions, which is a different type of optimization than I've been seeing. I have wanted to see how minion optimization works versus the environment.

Yes, it would be interesting. I haven't run many theorycrafted combats lately because I'm too busy working on tools for running them. (You have noticed in this thread that trying to keep track of action declarations/resolutions/stats for 8 or 10 creatures and share them over the Internet with an audience is extremely time-consuming, and adding an extra 16 summons would just make that problem exponentially worse. So I've been distracted for the past month and a half trying to make a web app that will solve that problem.)

I know we've had our differences in the past but I've really enjoyed reading your thoughts on this thread. Hiding behind hypnotized wolves for cover is pure gold.

Anyway, my notional party for this challenge would probably depend upon what stats I rolled, but a quick sketch of a party that would be fun to play is:

Paladin of Devotion 9/Wild Sorc 3/Warlock 1 with Extended/Quicken metamagics (for super-healing), Cha 20, and Lucky. Warhorse's name is Claudius.
Cthulock 2/Lore Bard 11 with Cha 20, Inspiring Leader, Agonizing Repelling Blast, and Magical Secrets: Aura of Vitality/Conjure Animals/Death Ward/Counterspell.
Necromancer 12/Life Cleric 1 with Str 15, Int 20, Warcaster, and Mobile.
Death Monk 13 with Mobile, Lucky, and Dex 18/Wis 18.

Fifth PC, if any, is likely to be a Mobile Sentinel Moon Druid because somebody usually rolls low, and Moon Druids are fun no matter how low your stats are. Also, that adds some more summoning power and Pass Without Trace. If not a Moon Druid then probably some kind of Sharpshooter fighter.

Ideal prep beforehand would include at least a couple of bound Air or Earth Elementals, but it depends upon how much money the party has.

 

[Celtavian]

Aggregate Resource Report

Time allotted: 4:55 minutes
Time used: 1 hour 16 minutes 1 round


Pre-encounter:
Wizard: 1 5th level slot to use teleportation circle from device.
10 minutes to cast ritual version of Rary's Telepathic Bond.

Encounter 1

Eldritch Knight: Hps: 120/106 Bolts used: 17 (1 recovered) Spell slots used: 0
Bard: Bard: 107/107 Bard slots Used: 1 3rd Inspiration: 4/3 Warlock Spell Slots: 2/2 (2nd level)
Paladin: Hps: 120/96 Slots used: 2 1st Channel Divinity: 1/1 Divine Sense: 5/5 Lay on hands: 60/60
Wizard: Hps: 93/92 Arcane Ward: 31/0 Slots used: 1 4th/1 5th Arcane Recovery: 6/6 levels (requires short rest; used once per long rest)
Cleric: 133/89 Channel Divinity: 2/2 Spell slots used: 0

Resources used: 17 bolts, 1 3rd level slot, 1 inspiration, 2 1st level slots, Arcane Ward, 1 4th level slot.
Damage received: 14 (EK) + 24 (paladin) +1 (wizard) +44 (cleric) = 83
Time use: 6 minutes
Description: 5 rounds battle (assume minute to get organized post-combat)/5 minute room search including giants, teleportation circle, and general search of any interesting nooks and crannies as well as habitation of area (Not much time, but hopefully Flamestrike didn't hide anything interesting in the area to help us. The gnome's passive 25 Investigation generally allows fast, effective searches, but it's easy to miss well hidden things if you don't look in the right place.


Travel Time: 1 hour running like heroes of legend to save the world. (It's hard not to enjoy the scenario Flamestrike has set up. It's definitely intense.)