D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

[Celtavian]

Round 4

First Encounter: No surprise round. Both parties alert to danger and visible.

Eldritch Knight 17 (same dex as Azurewraith, so assuming same init)
Giants: 17
Bard: 15
Paladin: 15
Wolves: 9
Wizard: 7
Cleric: 5

4th round actions:

Eldritch Knight: Hps: 120/106 Bolts used: 16 Spell slots used: 0
Free action telepath:
Action: Fire two bolts at FG2 and two at FG1 (3/4 cover from ape, but cover doesn't matter to Sharpshooter)
Bonus Action: Extra hand crossbow shot.
Using Sharpshooter: +13-5 sharpshooter=+8 to hit.
Rolls: 15=23,18=27 (two hits) and 6=14,11=19 (1 hit) Damage: FG2: 2d6+32 (4,3) 39 and FG1: 1d6+16 (5)=21
Move Action: EK holds position.
Missed bolts: 3 (half recoverable at end of battle)

Giants: FG1: Dead and FG2: Dead The big giant (designate FG2 and closest to paladin; engaged in melee) with the axe made of ice.


FG1: To the death with the ape.
Action: Desperately attack ape. 2 attacks. +9 melee
Rolls: 18=27, 6=15 (two hits) ; Damage: 6d12+12 (7,7,12,9,4,5)=56 slashing damage
Move: Holds position against ape.

Bard: Bard: 107/107 Bard slots Used: 1 3rd Inspiration: 4/3 Warlock Spell Slots: 2/2 (2nd level)

Move action: Move to minimize cover.
Action: Eldritch blast at FG1. +9 to hit.(Giant has partial cover: +2 to AC)
Rolls: 10=19,2=11,11=20 (2 hits); Damage: 2d10+8 (6,4) 18 force
Free action telepathy: Hold on the wolf.

Paladin: Hps: 120/96 Slots used: 2 1st Channel Divinity: 1/1 Divine Sense: 5/5 Lay on hands: 60/60
Free Action Telepathy: On giant.
Move: Moves to giant.
Action: Attack FG1. +9 to hit
Rolls: 11=20, 1=10 (1 hit) Damage: 1d8+4 slashing plus 1d8 radiant (6,6) 16

Wolves: Wolf 1: 75/20 Wolf 2: Dead Wolf 3: Dead Wolf 4: Dead
No actions. Three wolves dead. Living one hypnotized round 3.

Wizard: Hps: 93/92 Arcane Ward: 31/0 Slots used: 1 4th/1 5th Arcane Recovery: 6/6 levels (requires short rest; used once per long rest)
Move: Move towards Jubali.
Action: Fire bolt wolf 1. +11 spell attack
Roll: 10=21 Dam: 3d10 fire (4,1,3) 8
Free action telepathy: Dom, Dom, kill wolf.

Cleric: 133/89 Channel Divinity: 2/2 Spell slots used: 0
Giant Ape: 157/31
Move: Dom pounds chest.
Attack: Pounds on Wolf 1; 2 fists: +9 melee attack
Roll: 10=19,17=26 (two hits); Damage: 6d10+12 (6,5,5,9,8,2) 47 bludgeoning

End of Round 4.

 

[Flamestrike]

First Encounter: No surprise round. Both parties alert to danger and visible.

Eldritch Knight 17 (same dex as Azurewraith, so assuming same init)
Giants: 17
Bard: 15
Paladin: 15
Wolves: 9
Wizard: 7
Cleric: 5

4th round actions:

Eldritch Knight: Hps: 120/106 Bolts used: 16 Spell slots used: 0
Free action telepath:
Action: Fire two bolts at FG2 and two at FG1 (3/4 cover from ape, but cover doesn't matter to Sharpshooter)
Bonus Action: Extra hand crossbow shot.
Using Sharpshooter: +13-5 sharpshooter=+8 to hit.
Rolls: 15=23,18=27 (two hits) and 6=14,11=19 (1 hit) Damage: FG2: 2d6+32 (4,3) 39 and FG1: 1d6+16 (5)=21
Move Action: EK holds position.
Missed bolts: 3 (half recoverable at end of battle)

Giants: FG1: 138/31 and FG2: Dead The big giant (designate FG2 and closest to paladin; engaged in melee) with the axe made of ice.

Choice: FG 2 is damn tired of the archer. He sidesteps the paladin staying in his reach (so no AoO) and moves to hammer the EK. FG1 is locked into death combat with King Kong.
FG1: Action: Desperately attack ape. 2 attacks. +9 melee
Rolls: 20 (crit)=29, 13=22 (two hits with crit-monkey not happy); Damage: 9d12+12 (3,3,12,10,1,3,10,4,12-this is why I hate d12 weapons, damage rolls too wide)=70 slashing damage
Move: Holds position against ape.

FG2: Attacks EK.
Move: Moves to attack EK. Stays in reach of paladin, so no AoO. FG2 right in midst of group. Everyone within reach.
Action: Attack EK. +10 to hit (I hope he doesn't get as lucky as his buddy)
Rolls:2=12, 9=18 (One hit and one miss.)

Bard reaction: Cutting Words (cutting note against attack roll 9): 1d10 subtracted from attack roll (9) FG2 attack misses as Jubali sends falsetto note against his axe.


Bard: Bard: 107/107 Bard slots Used: 1 3rd Inspiration: 4/3 Warlock Spell Slots: 2/2 (2nd level)

Move action: Nowhere much to move. Stays out of 5 foot reach so no disadvantage on ranged spell attack.
Action: Eldritch blast at FG2. +9 to hit.
Rolls: 7=16,5=14,13=22 (2 hits); Damage: 2d10+8 (5,2) 15 force
Free action telepathy: Take this one down. Too close.

Paladin: Hps: 120/96 Slots used: 2 1st Channel Divinity: 1/1 Divine Sense: 5/5 Lay on hands: 60/60
Free Action Telepathy: I have big one.
Move: Hold position.
Action: Attack Wolf FG2. +9 to hit
Rolls: 7=16, 10=19 Damage: 2d8+8 slashing plus 2d8 radiant (8,1,6,7) 30 radiant and slashing to FG2


Wolves: Wolf 1: 75/75 (hypnotized) Wolf 2: Dead Wolf 3: Dead Wolf 4: Dead
No actions. Three wolves dead. Living one hypnotized round 3.

Wizard: Hps: 93/92 Arcane Ward: 31/0 Slots used: 1 4th/1 5th Arcane Recovery: 6/6 levels (requires short rest; used once per long rest)
Move: Giants is standing next to him. He's a gutsy little guy. He'll stay his ground.
Action: Shocking grasp at FG2. +11 spell attack
Roll: 18=29 Dam: 3d8 electrical (7,2,3) 12 (Giant loses reaction)
Free action telepathy: Dom, Dom, kill giant behind you. Kill giant behind you.

Cleric: 133/89 Channel Divinity: 2/2 Spell slots used: 0
Giant Ape: 157/87
Move: Dom ignores wizard. He's too enraged from crit. He hammers on FG1.
Attack: Pounds on FG1; 2 fists: +9 melee attack
Roll: 2=11; 11=20; Damage: 3d10+6 (7,1,1) 15 bludgeoning to FG1

End of Round 3.

I'll finish this when I get home from work. Should wrap up in round 4 or 5 depending rolls.

Who cast polymorph and how come they havent been forced into a concentration save yet?

 

[Celtavian]

Who cast polymorph and how come they havent been forced into a concentration save yet?

The wizard cast polymorph. Then he dived and hid behind the wolf corpse for full cover near the back wall. FG2 hypnotized. Other wolves impeded and engaged. FG1 has giant monkey in his face and had to wake his buddy up. Not easy to get hit on mage you can't see that isn't doing anything but avoiding getting struck for a concentration save with other targets hammering you to death.

Not to mentioned I used your recommended tactic of hitting the archer who was pounding him for damage.

It's pretty easy to see in the progression of actions why no one got a shot on the gnome other than the wolves who breathed on the group. The gnome's initiative fell after the wolves, so no check after he cast. The wolves that could attack him were dead before they could get another shot.

This is only a four round combat. Giants don't have unlimited actions.

 

[Celtavian]

Round 5

First Encounter: No surprise round. Both parties alert to danger and visible.

Eldritch Knight 17 (same dex as Azurewraith, so assuming same init)
Giants: 17
Bard: 15
Paladin: 15
Wolves: 9
Wizard: 7
Cleric: 5

5th round actions:

Eldritch Knight: Hps: 120/106 Bolts used: 18 Spell slots used: 0
Free action telepath:
Action: Fire enough bolts to finish wolf.
Using Sharpshooter: +13-5 sharpshooter=+8 to hit.
Rolls: 7=15, 20=28 (2 hit) Damage: Wolf 1: 3d6+32 (1,4,3) 40
Move Action: EK holds position.
Missed bolts: 3 (half recoverable at end of battle)

Giants: FG1: Dead and FG2: Dead The big giant (designate FG2 and closest to paladin; engaged in melee) with the axe made of ice.


Bard: Bard: 107/107 Bard slots Used: 1 3rd Inspiration: 4/3 Warlock Spell Slots: 2/2 (2nd level)

Move action: Start to clear rom.
Action:
Free action telepathy: Clear room, quick check giants. Leave loot for later.

Paladin: Hps: 120/96 Slots used: 2 1st Channel Divinity: 1/1 Divine Sense: 5/5 Lay on hands: 60/60
Free Action Telepathy: Clearing
Move: Starts room clear.
Action:

Wolves: Wolf 1: Dead Wolf 2: Dead Wolf 3: Dead Wolf 4: Dead

Wizard: Hps: 93/92 Arcane Ward: 31/0 Slots used: 1 4th/1 5th Arcane Recovery: 6/6 levels (requires short rest; used once per long rest)
Move:
Action: Fire bolt wolf 1. +11 spell attack

Cleric: 133/89 Channel Divinity: 2/2 Spell slots used: 0
Giant Ape: 157/31
Move: Dom pounds chest.
Attack: Pounds on Wolf 1; 2 fists: +9 melee attack


End of Round 5. Combat over. Room being cleared.

 

[Celtavian]

Resource Report: Encounter 1

Rounds: 5

Eldritch Knight: Hps: 120/106 Bolts used: 17 (1 recovered) Spell slots used: 0
Bard: Bard: 107/107 Bard slots Used: 1 3rd Inspiration: 4/3 Warlock Spell Slots: 2/2 (2nd level)
Paladin: Hps: 120/96 Slots used: 2 1st Channel Divinity: 1/1 Divine Sense: 5/5 Lay on hands: 60/60
Wizard: Hps: 93/92 Arcane Ward: 31/0 Slots used: 1 4th/1 5th Arcane Recovery: 6/6 levels (requires short rest; used once per long rest)
Cleric: 133/89 Channel Divinity: 2/2 Spell slots used: 0

Resources used: 17 bolts, 1 3rd level slot, 1 inspiration, 2 1st level slots, Arcane Ward, 1 4th level slot.
Damage received: 14 (EK) + 24 (paladin) +1 (wizard) +44 (cleric) = 83

Post-combat analysis: Terrain: The room was oddly sized given the description. It required a larger room to fit so many large creatures at the positions described by Flamestrike. I adjusted actions and movement to positioning described by Flamestrike using a grid map. The terrain wasn't particularly advantageous for either side. It was very crowded allowing the PCs to clear a back corner area that slowed FG advance for a round since they would have had to squeeze to fit amongst the party and wolves. Once the wolves were mostly dead by round 2 the giant had room to move and try to kill the EK who was doing the most damage.

Tactics: After seeing the location of the giants, I switched hypnotic pattern use to them. given the location of the cleric and paladin and their movement rate, they would have had to be within the 30 foot cube to engage. I had the giant that was active wake his buddy in round 2 because fighting alone is a bad idea. He could have tried to throw a rock at the bard forcing a concentration check, but that wouldn't have been guaranteed. If the tactic failed, he's basically alone, getting focus fired, and his buddy is set up to die if he goes down. I felt spending the action on round 2 to guarantee FG 2 would be active was a worthwhile action.

The wolves were much softer targets than I thought they would be. An EK archer even with bad rolls can do a ton a damage to AC 13 targets with Sharpshooter. The EK rolled poorly for the most part, but their ACs were low enough it did not matter.

Flamestrike wants to know why no one landed a shot on the wizard to attempt to disrupt polymorph. The gnome throwing himself prone behind a large wolf corpse for full cover doesn't seem a hard to imagine action. A large wolf corpse would easily provide full cover for a 3 foot tall gnome that is prone. Fortunately, the initiative order allowed perfect timing for the wizard to polymorph Dom the Cleric allowing him to attack in ape form on his initiative count. A huge ape isn't an easy obstacle to bypass. I feel a 9 intelligence giant would not ignore a king kong-sized monkey in his face to hammer targets that aren't attacking him and he can't easily see in the hopes of ending the spell in the short time he had to figure that out and close the distance while trying to get his buddy back into action. I leave that up to others to debate.

This encounter was a pure brute battle set up so that the party couldn't avoid combat without the Giant tongue. The party executed effectively ending the fight in a little over 4 rounds.

Opinion: Brute battles are generally easy and straightforward. This feels about appropriate resource use for a Medium encounter. The favorable initiative order for the giants caused the use of an extra 1st level spell. The inspiration for cutting words was a good use of an ability for hit point loss prevention.

I'd like to hear how others might have run the battle or the PCS. I'll leave a little time to talk before discussing travel and starting encounter 2.

Encounter 2 will be much tougher and require more resources. The terrain advantages and abilities of Death Slaad will tax the party heavily. AoE damage dealers almost always tax a party more than single target damage dealers.

 

[Celtavian]

Flamestrike,

If I decide to move at fast pace to the rift, how much time will that cut off the two hour travel time? Do I face any ambushes with disadvantage on perception checks?

 

[Flamestrike]

Flamestrike,

If I decide to move at fast pace to the rift, how much time will that cut off the two hour travel time? Do I face any ambushes with disadvantage on perception checks?

As DM fiat, I would let you run to the Mountain in an hour (LotR style) instead of walking there in 2.

Would call for a Con [athletics] check at a DC of 10 or suffer a level of exhaustion though.

 

[Charles Rampant]

This thread is interesting, but is it possible to get summaries in the first post of how the different parties engaged and dealt with the encounters? There are a lot of posts in here that seem more interested in insulting other posters than in producing worthwhile analysis.

Primary analysis: I need to find the ignore button.
Secondary analysis: the Giants encounter drains resources, but does so mainly through HP loss rather than spell slot loss; I have found players in general care less about losing HP than they do about losing spell slots, with the possible exception of undead-style permanent HP loss.

 

[BoldItalic]

I've worked through the first encounter again using hexes. As @Celtavian has notices using squares, it's actually very crowded and I've had to enlarge the cave to 60ft N-S to fit everyone in. I've used the original party and kept the original intiative order but the tactics on both sides have had to change because there is so little room to manoeuvre. Where possible, I've averaged damage.


Map showing position after giants' move



The Rogue uses his Cunning Action to disengage, moves his speed SW and shoots at the westernmost southernmost wolf. He gets Sneak Attack because the wolf is adjacent to the Paladin Cleric. He is +10 to hit AC13 for d8+5+6d6 so on average he scores 28 damage.

FG1 (Gorbarth) positions himself NW of the Paladin at 10ft reach and attacks at +10 vs AC21 so on average he hits once and his average damage is 32 on the Paladin. FG2 can't reach the cleric because he doesn't have enough hexes of movement to get through the wolves and around the back of the party, so he positions himself to the NE of the Wizard at 10ft reach and attacks the Wizard. He is +9 vs AC12 so on average he scores 1.8 hits @ 25 for an average of 45 damage on the Wizard.

The Bard can potentially catch all six monsters with Hypnotic Pattern if she centres it on the centre point of the party (I said it was crowded in here). She uses a level-3 Bard slot. The PCs are immune because of the Paladin's aura. On average, one wolf will make its save and each giant has a 20% chance of saving. From here on, the encounter swings depending on the saves so I rolled it out once. Only FG2 made his save, with a roll of 17, not FG1 nor any of the wolves.

At this point, the party tries to disable FG2 before it can act again and rouse the others. Weapon and cantip damage alone is probably not going to be enough unless they get very lucky, so they are prepared to use spell slots.

The Paladin is now free to move and squeezes past the Wizard to melee FG2. He uses a 1st-level slot for a Divine Smite. On average he gets 1.7 hits @ 15 average damage plus 9 for the Divine Smite, so his expected damage is 35.

The wolves are all incapacitated.

The Wizard estimates that he, the Cleric and the Rogue are not going to do enough damage to kill the giant before it can act again, and the continuation is likely to cost the party at least five 1st-level slots. He can recover a 5th-level slot during a short rest as easily as five firsts, so he decides to take a chance on ending the encounter right here. He uses a 5th-level slot to cast Modify Memory on the giant. It has advantage on its Wis save because it is already fighting the Wizard and rolls 8|7 + 0 = 8, fails against the Wizard's DC16 and is Charmed/Incapacitated. There was a 48% chance that it would make the save, so the Wizard was taking a calculated risk.

All the monsters are now incapacitated and the party has 1 minute to withdraw freely and leave the cave.

Cost to the Party
32 damage to the Paladin, 45 damage to the Wizard.
Slots used: Bard 1(3rd), Paladin 1(1st), Wizard 1(5th).

That's a total of 9 slot levels out of a party total of 60, which is about right for one encounter (although later encounters may be harder).

 

[Azurewraith]

I've worked through the first encounter again using hexes. As [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] has notices using squares, it's actually very crowded and I've had to enlarge the cave to 60ft N-S to fit everyone in. I've used the original party and kept the original intiative order but the tactics on both sides have had to change because there is so little room to manoeuvre. Where possible, I've averaged damage.

If I can make a map showing how I placed all the figures in the hexes, I will edit it in here.

The Rogue uses his Cunning Action to disengage, moves his speed SW and shoots at the westernmost wolf. He gets Sneak Attack because the wolf is adjacent to the Paladin. He is +10 to hit AC13 for d8+5+6d6 so on average he scores 28 damage.

FG1 (Gorbarth) positions himself NW of the Paladin at 10ft reach and attacks at +10 vs AC21 so on average he hits once and his average damage is 32 on the Paladin. FG2 can't reach the cleric because he doesn't have enough hexes of movement to get through the wolves and around the back of the party, so he positions himself to the NE of the Wizard at 10ft reach and attacks the Wizard. He is +9 vs AC12 so on average he scores 1.8 hits @ 25 for an average of 45 damage on the Wizard.

The Bard can potentially catch all six monsters with Hypnotic Pattern if she centres it on the centre point of the party (I said it was crowded in here). She uses a level-3 Bard slot. The PCs are immune because of the Paladin's aura. On average, one wolf will make its save and each giant has a 20% chance of saving. From here on, the encounter swings depending on the saves so I rolled it out once. Only FG2 made his save, with a roll of 17.

At this point, the party tries to disable FG2 before it can act again and rouse the others. Weapon and cantip damage alone is probably not going to be enough unless they get very lucky, so they are prepared to use spell slots.

The Paladin is now free to move and squeezes past the Wizard to melee FG2. He uses a 1st-level slot for a Divine Smite. On average he gets 1.7 hits @ 15 average damage plus 9 for the Divine Smite, so his expected damage is 35.

The wolves are all incapacitated.

The Wizard estimates that he, the Cleric and the Rogue are not going to do enough damage to kill the giant before it can act again, and the continuation is likely to cost the party at least five 1st-level slots. He can recover a 5th-level slot during a short rest as easily as five firsts, so he decides to take a chance on ending the encounter right here. He uses a 5th-level slot to cast Modify Memory on the giant. It has advantage on its Wis save because it is already fighting the Wizard and rolls 8|7 + 0 = 8, fails against the Wizard's DC16 and is Charmed/Incapacitated. There was a 48% chance that it would make the save, so the Wizard was taking a calculated risk.

All the monsters are now incapacitated and the party has 1 minute to withdraw freely and leave the cave.

Cost to the Party
32 damage to the Paladin, 45 damage to the Wizard.
Slots used: Bard 1(3rd), Paladin 1(1st), Wizard 1(5th).

That's a total of 9 slot levels out of a party total of 60, which is about right for one encounter (although later encounters may be harder).

Good use of spells to escape there be interesting to see how using a 5th lvl slot to save HP works out