Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana: The ranger, revised... overcompensation?

[nswanson27]

Something missing from the multi-class dip discussion is what the class is giving up to get the dip.

So an Assassin/Ranger at 2nd level has advantage on initiative and attacks against creatures that have not yet acted and +2 damage to Humanoids (Favored Enemy), but a level 2 Assassin gets Cunning Action to Dash, Disengage or Hide.

Then at 3rd level the Assassin/Ranger finally get's his Cunning Action, but still only has Sneak Attack +1d6, while the level 3 Assassin now has Sneak Attack +2d6 and is now, well, an Assassin. You have advantage on creatures that have not yet attacked and if he hits it automatically crits. Now, am I crazy or is the advantage on creatures that have not yet attacked exactly the same benefit that the Ranger dip gave?

Continuing on! At 4th level the Assassin/Ranger now has Sneak Attack +2d6 and gets the Assassin sub-class. He gets advantage to attack creatures that have not yet gone, which does nothing since he already had that, and can now auto-crit if he hits a surprised creature. Yay? Meanwhile the pure Assassin 4 gets an ASI. So, +1 to hit and damage? Or a feat?

So tell me again how this breaks the Assassin.

*Note, as the Assassin isn't OGL, I'm going from memory on some of this. Don't have my books with me.

Good point on the benefit redundancy with Deep Stalker/Assassin, although this might come down to specific wording. Don't have PHB in front of me, but I seem to remember that assassin's advantage benefit ends when a creature has "taken a turn", not "taken an action". Meaning, by RAW, since surprised creatures don't get to act, they still have nonetheless taken a turn, so that wording would prevent straight assassin from gaining even advantage over a creature if they don't beat their initiative roll.
Although, if they are stealthed, this doesn't matter anyway, unless the assassin has a multiattack somehow from somewhere else.

 

[Lord Twig]

Good point on the benefit redundancy with Deep Stalker/Assassin, although this might come down to specific wording. Don't have PHB in front of me, but I seem to remember that assassin's advantage benefit ends when a creature has "taken a turn", not "taken an action". Meaning, by RAW, since surprised creatures don't get to act, they still have nonetheless taken a turn, so that wording would prevent straight assassin from gaining even advantage over a creature if they don't beat their initiative roll.
Although, if they are stealthed, this doesn't matter anyway, unless the assassin has a multiattack somehow from somewhere else.

I think they are worded the part about getting advantage on your attack the same. The part that requires surprise is the auto crit. So really all you are getting out of Ranger is advantage on initiative, ignore difficult terrain, and Favored Enemy. At fourth level a strait Assassin can boost his Dex by 2 or take Alert for a +5 bonus to initiative, can’t be surprised while conscious, and creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you.

At 5th the Assassin/Ranger gets the ASI or feat while the strait Assassin gets Sneak Attack +3d6 and Uncanny Dodge.

No matter what the level, the multiclass will be missing something that the strait class would get. Some times it might be better, sometimes it's not. Honestly it looks pretty balanced.

Edit: Oh, the Assassin/Ranger would also get all this neat rangery stuff:

• Difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s travel.• Your group can’t become lost except by magical means.• Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger.• If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.• When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would.• While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area.

 

[Lord Twig]

I am not strongly disagreeing with you in both of the things you say, regarding favored enemy always being part of the ranger and that it shouldn't be made a big deal when FE is not useful in a particular situation.

However, to me it feels as if favored enemy is "taking up design space" and something much more interesting could be put in its place. I wouldn't mind a subclass centered around having favored enemies and gaining specific abilities depending on the choice of FE. Also would anything be really lost if a renamed favored enemy gave advantage on wisdom (survival) and on intelligence to gain information checks to track creatures? The ranger is all round good at tracking creatures (wisdom (survival)) and while you track a creature you slowly learn (intelligence) stuff about it (sleeping & eating habits, maybe weaknesses, etc).

Again, not saying that it is not easily ignored, but how about thinking it the other way around? You have a tracking ability that mechanically applies to everyone, but you role play your character hating a specific group of creatures.

Cheers

Wanted to reply to this...

By adding the +2 damage they have given the Ranger a minor, and situationally limited, combat buff. A buff that Greybeard_Ray pointed out has a very long history behind it. In addition one of the major complaints of the Ranger was that Favored Enemy was essentially worthless. Your suggestion takes it back to that "worthless" state.

Do not like.

 

[PrimevalSeeker]

Wanted to reply to this...

By adding the +2 damage they have given the Ranger a minor, and situationally limited, combat buff. A buff that Greybeard_Ray pointed out has a very long history behind it. In addition one of the major complaints of the Ranger was that Favored Enemy was essentially worthless. Your suggestion takes it back to that "worthless" state.

Do not like.

I am just saying that the non-combat favored enemy part could be made to an early level ranger class feature that applies to all creatures and frees up space for another ability at later levels. Personally, I would prefer if the tracker/hunter aspect of the ranger (outside the hunter subclass) was represented by something else other than favored enemy. For me the less levels "occupied" by favored terrain/enemy the more interesting the class becomes.

 

[The Myopic Sniper]

IMO, they just need to put the combat buffs of natural explorer into Primeval Awareness instead. That's all it needs, IMO.

My guess is that is what they planned to do all along, I guess they see no harm testing it at a lower level for feedback purposes.

 

[Faenor]

Something missing from the multi-class dip discussion is what the class is giving up to get the dip.

So an Assassin/Ranger at 2nd level has advantage on initiative and attacks against creatures that have not yet acted and +2 damage to Humanoids (Favored Enemy), but a level 2 Assassin gets Cunning Action to Dash, Disengage or Hide.

Then at 3rd level the Assassin/Ranger finally get's his Cunning Action, but still only has Sneak Attack +1d6, while the level 3 Assassin now has Sneak Attack +2d6 and is now, well, an Assassin. You have advantage on creatures that have not yet attacked and if he hits it automatically crits. Now, am I crazy or is the advantage on creatures that have not yet attacked exactly the same benefit that the Ranger dip gave?

Continuing on! At 4th level the Assassin/Ranger now has Sneak Attack +2d6 and gets the Assassin sub-class. He gets advantage to attack creatures that have not yet gone, which does nothing since he already had that, and can now auto-crit if he hits a surprised creature. Yay? Meanwhile the pure Assassin 4 gets an ASI. So, +1 to hit and damage? Or a feat?

So tell me again how this breaks the Assassin.

*Note, as the Assassin isn't OGL, I'm going from memory on some of this. Don't have my books with me.

From what I've read, 'giving up', wrt multiclassing, means at the max level end. So if you mc 1 level, you only give up capstone PvP 20 features. Mc only delays lower level abilities, and since you can mc any time, It's up to each player to choose their priorities.

 

[Faenor]

Or maybe I don't understand what you are saying. Is it comparing ranger to rogue abilities? Are you saying the abilities are redundant and don't stack?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I LOATHE that Multiclassing is literally the only reason we must do this, but for those concerned about it, this is the best, most reasonable, and cleanest "fix" to the issues. If Sorcerer's don't get Metamagic til level 3, pushing off Natural Explorer until 3 isn't going to kill anything.

Or, if need be, as others have suggested, we can move the combat benefits (advantage on initiative and attacks against creatures who haven't acted yet) to Primeval Awareness at 3. I guess always being the first to act and always more "alert" would go along with "Primeval Awareness" though, in terms of matching fluff.

While I don't think the dipping issue is a real issue, I think the best fit for the combat benefits is strongly in Primeval Awareness, from a thematical standpoint. It's has little to do with being an explorer, and everything to do with awareness. The other natural explorer benefits, IMO, belong strongly at level 1. Those are what you should get by taking one level in ranger.


Regarding favored enemy, I think it's fine, but I'd also be fine with making it more specific creature types, and adding an ability to spend an action studying a single creature, and gain all favored enemy benefits against that creature, for at least 24 hrs.

Or, making the benefits more generic in target, with varied by F.E. choice. This variant would be more of a guiding hand ranger ability, making the whole party more effective against a target. So, you pick a feature type, and gain a benefit based on them, like ability to shut down regeneration, and can grant your allies that ability as an action, and it lasts an hour or something.
Useful against a number of foes, and more dynamic, which any situational ability should be, IMO.

 

[Lord Twig]

Or maybe I don't understand what you are saying. Is it comparing ranger to rogue abilities? Are you saying the abilities are redundant and don't stack?

A little of both. The advantage to attacks against opponents that have not yet acted (or had a turn) is the same (I believe) for both the Ranger and the Assassin. So those don't stack.

What is "given up" is whatever you would normally get for that level as a strait Assassin. Frequently you will hear that the Assassin is only giving up Stroke of Luck at 20th level, and who plays that high anyway! But that's not true. You are giving something up at every single level you play. If you are playing at 15th level, then you gave up Slippery Mind and another d6 of Sneak Attack for the 1st level Ranger benefits. If you are playing at 6th level you are giving up Expertise. And so on.

 

[UnadvisedGoose445]

While I don't think the dipping issue is a real issue, I think the best fit for the combat benefits is strongly in Primeval Awareness, from a thematical standpoint. It's has little to do with being an explorer, and everything to do with awareness. The other natural explorer benefits, IMO, belong strongly at level 1. Those are what you should get by taking one level in ranger.

I think the immunity to difficult terrain belongs with Natural Explorer. But yes, I agree, the "awareness" features regarding initiative and those who haven't acted yet. But I just really hope we don't lose the beast benefits in Primeval Awareness. That is possibly my favorite new thing in this version of the Ranger. Such a cool, flavorful thing.