D&D 5E Little rules changes that still trip you up

[KahlessNestor]

Notice that the rulebook doesn't say, "Any character or monster that doesn't notice something/someone as a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." It seems that you, and others who share your interpretation, have inserted that word "as" into the rulebook, putting an emphasis on the character or monster's own determination of whether something is a threat or not, rather than the objective truth of whether something is a threat that a straightforward reading of the rule would suggest. That is why I say that it doesn't matter whether a creature is perceived as a threat. It is objectively a threat, or it is not.



The rulebook doesn't say, "Any character or monster that doesn't believe something/someone is a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." The question is, "Are the orcs objectively a threat?", and if so, "Are they perceived at all?"



If someone has the potential to suddenly decide to murder you, then in my opinion, that person is a threat and always was.

Yeah, now you're just being obtuse. That makes EVERYTHING an objective threat, making it all meaningless.

Threat and surprise are being used in natural language. Perception of threat has EVERYTHING to do with surprise.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

[Hriston]

But not necessarily as a threat.

There is no "as a threat." They either are a threat, or they are not.

Sigh. Are you being deliberately obtuse on this, or are we talking past each other somehow? I'm not sure how much clearer I can explain it...

No, I'm not being deliberately obtuse. I've been trying very hard to explain things. I don't feel that you've been at all receptive however, which has resulted in quite a bit of talking past each other.

Maybe some examples?

You have hust succeeded in bedding the princess and are comfortably ensconced beside the comely maiden in her luxurious bed. She leans over you and smiles, coming to kiss you, and pulls a dagger from beneath the pillow, plunging it at your chest. You are Surprised.

Or maybe she shifts into a hag. It doesn't matter. She is a threat you didn't perceive because this is unexpected behavior from a princess you just spent a passionate moment with! Tou are literally caught with your pants down.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

I bolded the above to highlight what I think is the crux of the disagreement. I agree that she is a threat. That is quite clear from the fact that she is trying to kill you. What I disagree with is that you didn't perceive her. You most certainly did! You know full well that she is right there in bed with you. The fact that you didn't know she was a threat until she tried to put a dagger in you is irrelevant to the way surprise is determined according to the rulebook. Have her make a Sleight of Hand check versus Perception as she pulls the dagger from under the pillow to give her advantage on initiative is the way I'd do it.

 

[Xetheral]

Notice that the rulebook doesn't say, "Any character or monster that doesn't notice something/someone as a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." It seems that you, and others who share your interpretation, have inserted that word "as" into the rulebook, putting an emphasis on the character or monster's own determination of whether something is a threat or not, rather than the objective truth of whether something is a threat that a straightforward reading of the rule would suggest. That is why I say that it doesn't matter whether a creature is perceived as a threat. It is objectively a threat, or it is not.



The rulebook doesn't say, "Any character or monster that doesn't believe something/someone is a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." The question is, "Are the orcs objectively a threat?", and if so, "Are they perceived at all?"



If someone has the potential to suddenly decide to murder you, then in my opinion, that person is a threat and always was.

I disagree completely. Surprise is character-specific, so it makes perfect sense to me that it should depend on each character's subjective determination of what is and is not a threat. Sure, there is also an objective truth as to whether or not something is a threat, but since IC characters cannot know that truth I see no reason that it should be in any way relevant to surprise.

I further disagree that the writers would have had to insert the word "as" to refer to subjective beliefs rather than objective truth. In the context of a character-specific determination I think subjectivity is implied even with the current wording.

 

[KahlessNestor]

There is no "as a threat." They either are a threat, or they are not.



No, I'm not being deliberately obtuse. I've been trying very hard to explain things. I don't feel that you've been at all receptive however, which has resulted in quite a bit of talking past each other.



I bolded the above to highlight what I think is the crux of the disagreement. I agree that she is a threat. That is quite clear from the fact that she is trying to kill you. What I disagree with is that you didn't perceive her. You most certainly did! You know full well that she is right there in bed with you. The fact that you didn't know she was a threat until she tried to put a dagger in you is irrelevant to the way surprise is determined according to the rulebook. Have her make a Sleight of Hand check versus Perception as she pulls the dagger from under the pillow to give her advantage on initiative is the way I'd do it.

And why can't I use Sleight of Hand vs. Perception (or Deception vs. Insight or whatever methid I decide ) to say that you are Surprised if you fail the opposed ability check? Using natural language, being able to simply see someone has no bearing on whether one is surprised or not. It is percieving the threat that person poses. There is no such thing as "objective threat". The orc you come across in the dungeon is perceived as an actual threat, whether he is or not in your meta "objectivity". You remain alert and on guard. The princess in her bedchamber after a lustful bout is not seen as a threat, even if she is. Or if not. What if she was dominated by the invisible spellcaster with a subtle spell in the room?

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

[Hriston]

Yeah, now you're just being obtuse.

What was it that the pot said to the kettle? Seriously, this sort of name-calling is unacceptable. Have a good day.

 

[machineelf]

I'm often surprised at other people's interpretation of a rule that seems simple to me. Without meaning to sound rude to anyone, I think some of you guys have the idea wrong. I am definitely open to being shown that I am wrong, but it seems clear to me that the action and first round begin after the attack is made. There are no taskie backsies.

1 - Assassin (hidden): "I'm going to shoot my bow at the unaware guard!"
2 - DM: "You unleash your arrow from your hidden place. Roll initiative."
3 - Initiative is rolled. Guard wins.
4. - DM: "The guard is quick enough that he gets a reaction if he has one to take. As the arrow is flying in the air he sees it out of the corner of his eye. He takes his reaction, but if he doesn't have one, he is caught completely unaware."

And that's it. The guard is STILL surprised even if he is quick enough to take a last-second reaction to the incoming attack. (Of course he has to have a reaction ability to use, which most people don't.) Is there some rule I'm missing that says the action and initiative start before the attack is made?

 

[Ahrimon]

I'm often surprised at other people's interpretation of a rule that seems simple to me. Without meaning to sound rude to anyone, I think some of you guys have the idea wrong. I am definitely open to being shown that I am wrong, but it seems clear to me that the action and first round begin after the attack is made. There are no taskie backsies.

1 - Assassin (hidden): "I'm going to shoot my bow at the unaware guard!"
2 - DM: "You unleash your arrow from your hidden place. Roll initiative."
3 - Initiative is rolled. Guard wins.
4. - DM: "The guard is quick enough that he gets a reaction if he has one to take. As the arrow is flying in the air he sees it out of the corner of his eye. He takes his reaction, but if he doesn't have one, he is caught completely unaware."

And that's it. The guard is STILL surprised even if he is quick enough to take a last-second reaction to the incoming attack. (Of course he has to have a reaction ability to use, which most people don't.) Is there some rule I'm missing that says the action and initiative start before the attack is made?

Personally I'm cool with that interpretation since it mostly lines up with mine; but where some people get stuck is with the assassins auto-crit (if I remember right) by surprising someone and going first. So in your example above the assassin would not get his auto-crit since the guard went first. Others don't think that the guard should not be able to go first and thus negate the auto-crit or that the assassin should be able to change his mind and not attack thus dropping everything out of initiative so that he can try again.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I guess I wasn't clear enough. What I was trying to say is that when the DM determines surprise, she is well aware of who is a threat and who is not. If someone doesn't pose a threat in the opinion of the DM then that creature doesn't need to be considered. As a DM, I would certainly consider the party a threat to any creature they are attacking. Then the question becomes, has the party been noticed by those to whom they pose a threat? If they are in the open, having a conversation, then the answer is most definitely yes! What I object to is that your interpretation relies on saying the PCs are not a threat when they have, by their very actions, proven (to the DM) that they are.

You think this way because you keep having the regular surprise definition in mind. My variant rule doesn't invoke ''threat'' at all in its text but instead says : ''Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a deception is surprised at the start of the encounter.''

If the party talk to NPCs who consider them as friendly, they don't perceive them as a threat anyway, that is the very reason why it rely on deception instead. Think how sucker punch often happens, when one is caught offguard because it never expected the other person to attack it while talking.

 

[Hriston]

I disagree completely. Surprise is character-specific, so it makes perfect sense to me that it should depend on each character's subjective determination of what is and is not a threat. Sure, there is also an objective truth as to whether or not something is a threat, but since IC characters cannot know that truth I see no reason that it should be in any way relevant to surprise.

I further disagree that the writers would have had to insert the word "as" to refer to subjective beliefs rather than objective truth. In the context of a character-specific determination I think subjectivity is implied even with the current wording.

How does this work out in play? Do you, as a DM, ask your players what they consider to be a threat or not? Or, as a player, when you encounter a creature, do you declare whether you consider it a threat? If so, I see no reason why a player wouldn't always automatically assume that every creature encountered is a threat. If not, then is it up to the DM to decide what the PC thinks? To me, that's not an acceptable division of duties at the table. I'll decide what my PC thinks is a threat, thank you very much. What I'm reading in this thread, however, is that if my PC sees an orc then my PC thinks it's a threat, and if my PC spends the night with a princess then my PC thinks she isn't a threat. That's the DM telling me how to play my character, which to me is unacceptable.

 

[Plaguescarred]

How does this work out in play?

The same way you do it for regular surprise rule to determine if you notice a threat, by having an contest. Here its a Charisma (Deception) vs Wisdom (Insight) rather than Dexterity (Stealth) vs Wisdom (Perception) normally used.