D&D 5E is a Fighter/cleric etc less powerful using a shield

[Flamestrike]

It is confusing, but I think the RAI was to defeat, in part that 1 extra AC while dual wielding a shield and longsword. It sucks, I agree. In real life a shield is more versatile than a defensive tool. Shield master tries to approach that but keeps damage out of the equation. There had been a feat in the later playtests allowing shields to deal damage, but testing must have proved through that it was either not favorable or too many people thought it was overly powerful.

If a player was dead set on something like this, I would allow it. Who am I to stand between them and their fun?

And TBH, I reckon that was a snap judgement than based on any mechnical considerations.

For a TWF/ Shield build you need 2 feats (Dual weilder as the shield isnt light, and Tavern brawler for proficiency) and 1 Fighting style (TWF). Shield master, and protection style are also nice but not must haves. Thats a ridiculously heavy character investment. For most PCs that doesnt come online till 8th level (Fighters at 6th level).

Lets compare them to a different direction: 2 feats (GWM and PA master) and 1 Fighting style (Defence). Assumes Prof +2 and Str 16.

TWF/ TB/ DW + Sword and board:

• +3 AC (Shield and DW)
• 2 attacks (action and bonus action): Sword 1d8+3 and Shield 1d4+3, both at +5
• Can draw two weapons at once

PAM/ GWM/ Defence + Halberd

• +1 AC (defence)
• 2 attacks (action and bonus action) Halberd 1d10+3 and haft 1d4+3, both at +5
• Reaction attack for entering reach 1d10+3 at +5
• Cleave option;
• Power attack -5/+10 option.
• Reach

As you can see, for the same heavy character investment (2 feats + 1 F/S) the S+B option is no better than the Pole arm option. The S+B option has an AC 2 points higher, but deals less DPR, lacks reaction attacks, reach, cleave and power attack. It's defensively better, but offensively much worse.

There is no mechanical reason not to allow it in a game.

From a simulationist perspective it's fine as well (smashing foes with your shield is a thing), and it actually gives S+B fighters (the most historically common way warriors went into battle in any event) a leveller against the very popular GWM and PAM styles.

I think you'd be mad to disallow it personally. I can see zero reason for it, other than 'fighters cant have nice things'.

 

[Flamestrike]

The +1 shield and ring are not that hard to get. Having three magic items of a protection nature isn't that hard with the current treasure tables. Even without magic our paladin will achieve AC 22 at level 4 if he goes with paladin 2 , fighter 4. Not optimal damage wise but still very efficient defensively. I can see him rising to 25 with the help of the cleric and sacred shield and he would share dmg with the cleric. 25 AC at level 6 becomes quit hard to counter. My example was a bit exteme I do admit. But even without magic it can get out of hand very fast.
That is why I kept saying that the intent is not to have all these stack together.

Lets compare shall we? Your turtle S+B Paladin 2/ Champion 4 vs a Fighter (champion) 6.

Instead of a defence and TWF style, a +1 shield, +1 armor, and a shield of faith buff, he's an archer with archery F/S, a +1 Bow, +1 arrows and the cleric dumped Bless on him instead of shield of faith.

Instead of dumping 2 feats on Dual weilder and Tavern Brawler, he simply took Sharpshooter at 1st and bumped Dex by 4.

At 6th level your turtle S+B Paladin/ Champion is AC 10 (base) 9 (magic plate) 3 (magic shield) 2 (shield of faith) 1 (dual weilder) 1 (defence style) for an impessive AC of 26. Mooks only hit him on a natural 20, and level appropriate threats need an 18+

He has two attacks, each at +5 dealing 1d8+3 and 1d4+3 respectively. Not good for this level at all.

The Archer has an AC of 10 (base) 8 (plate) = 18

He has two attacks per round, each at +12[+1d4], dealing 1d8+7 damage each. Plus the -5/+10 option.

His AC is 8 points lower, but his attack bonus is 8-11 points higher (more than cancelling it out), and his damage is higher.

Im not seeing it as broken. Its a one trick pony that doesnt really do much other than have high AC.

 

[Helldritch]

I whole heartedly agree with you on that one. The turtle at lvl 6 is not that strong. But as the level rise, he gets harder and harder to hit.

If you don't bump your archer's strength, he'll be stuck at 25 movement (he wearing plate and strength is surely below 16 with normal array and if given 14 then it means only a 13 in Con.) . Our turtle will get to him by dodging and moving in on him. Attacking such an AC at disadvantage means that even at +12 it will not hit that often and it is a certainty that your archer won't use -5/+10 or he would need two rolls of 19+ to hit. That means our archer will need to roll 14 or more. The Turtle will close the gap and then start to attack. Unless your archer sacrifice one ASI to get xbow expert, he is toast. Now he has no use of a bow and needs to fight up close. Guess who'll win? He'll need 18 to hit vs 13 for the turtle.

I'll give you that the gap will only close by a mere 5' but the gap will close. Assuming a normal dungeon then it means about 6 to 8 rounds to close the gap. Enough for 4 maybe 5 hits?

Outdoor would be much better for our archer. With 80+ or even 120' our archer should down our turtle. But in that case our turtle might go with the dash. 26 AC is still a 14+ to hit. Once the gap is closed, if he can, our turtle is on the advantage again but might die from earlier dmg dealt to him.

But on normal play, our turtle will be against critters. His role would be to block the door and prevent anything from passing by to the squishier characters. Your archer might get stuck in melee. The turtle would not care for ranged critters as monsters for 6th level characters will have a hard time to hit him. Such a hard time that you as a DM will have to strike the characters in the back because of such a high armor class. Nope, I would not let the fighting styles stack.

And then again, I would not give +1 plate and +1 shield so soon in the game. That is why I was mainly talking about 12th level characters as it is doom that at least one +1 shield will come up and maybe a protection ring.

 

[auburn2]

So a couple points on shield damage. First you can bash someone with a shield in real life, but in general that is not going to do nearly as much physical trauma to a person's body as stabbing them with a dagger or bashing them with a club so that is one argument against damage, or at least 1-4 damage. If you grab the shield on end and swing it a certain way sure, but that does not something that would be doable with a bonus action every round barring a feat to allow it.

I think the shield master feat has it right if you are going to be bashing with a shield on a regular basis. Barring that I would let characters use it as an improvised weapon but lthat bash would be their action for the round.

 

[Helldritch]

[MENTION=6855259]auburn2[/MENTION]

Exactly my thougths.

 

[Quartz]

So a couple points on shield damage...

The real benefit of the Shield Master feat is that if you push the target prone then everyone gets to make their attacks against it with Advantage.

A secondary advantage is that it gives you +2 or more to your Dex saves.

 

[auburn2]

The real benefit of the Shield Master feat is that if you push the target prone then everyone gets to make their attacks against it with Advantage.

A secondary advantage is that it gives you +2 or more to your Dex saves.

Absolutely I agree ... and a pseudo limited "evasion" type ability to boot. IMO it is the best fighter feat in the game hands down. A dueling battlemaster with shield master is IMO in general the best fighter in the game. Against high-AC foes the regular advantage will result in better damage output than either a DW or a GWM and makes it pretty awash against medium AC foes, not to mention your allies getting advantage if their turn is between yours and the enemy you are fighting.

My post above was more about damage. I think the knockdown is appropriate as I think that is a legit outcome for doing a shield bash, I think the damage would be over the top unless you were using your shield like Captain America does.

 

[Flamestrike]

So a couple points on shield damage. First you can bash someone with a shield in real life, but in general that is not going to do nearly as much physical trauma to a person's body as stabbing them with a dagger or bashing them with a club so that is one argument against damage, or at least 1-4 damage. If you grab the shield on end and swing it a certain way sure, but that does not something that would be doable with a bonus action every round barring a feat to allow it.

I think the shield master feat has it right if you are going to be bashing with a shield on a regular basis. Barring that I would let characters use it as an improvised weapon but lthat bash would be their action for the round.

How is bashing someone with the rim of your shield going to do less damage than hitting them with a club?

Its harder to do for sure (represented in game by requiring the Tavern Brawler for proficiency, Dual Weilder and TWF to do at the same time as something in your off hand, and to get the full force of the blow beind it via adding Str to the damage).

Clubs are easier to clobber someone with. The rules reflect that. Most classes can pick up a club and swing it with proficiency just fine. It takes special training to do the same with a shield.

I would assume a trained warrior (someone with Fighter levels) who has devoted a lifetime to doing it (two feats, a fighting style) should be able to get 1d4+Str worth of damage out of a shield each round!

 

[Helldritch]

How is bashing someone with the rim of your shield going to do less damage than hitting them with a club?

Its harder to do for sure (represented in game by requiring the Tavern Brawler for proficiency, Dual Weilder and TWF to do at the same time as something in your off hand, and to get the full force of the blow beind it via adding Str to the damage).

Clubs are easier to clobber someone with. The rules reflect that. Most classes can pick up a club and swing it with proficiency just fine. It takes special training to do the same with a shield.

I would assume a trained warrior (someone with Fighter levels) who has devoted a lifetime to doing it (two feats, a fighting style) should be able to get 1d4+Str worth of damage out of a shield each round!

If you feel that it must be done. Then by all means do it. It'll be your house rule. Your table, your rules. I do understand your position. I have a similar one with eldritch blast. Your table, your rule. But I don't see that happening at my table. Shield master is already great as it is.

 

[Flamestrike]

If you feel that it must be done. Then by all means do it. It'll be your house rule.

Its not a house rule. Its (largely) RAW and RAI:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/11/17/shield-attack/

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/18/a-shield-isnt-a-weapon/

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/04/20/dual-wielder-and-shield/

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/06/18...ns-for-the-purposes-of-the-dual-wielder-feat/

RAW + RAI: An improvised weapon is a weapon. 'Weapon' is not the objective state of a thing in and of itself. Anything becomes a weapon the instant you use it as such. If not designed to be a weapon, it is an improvised weapon (but a weapon nontheless)

A shield (used as a weapon) is a weapon. An improvised weapon.

If you pick up a halfling one handed and bash someone with him, and you have the dueling style, you add +2 to the damage dealt. If you're a Paladin, you can smite evil with the halfling. If youre a raging barbarian, you add your rage bonus to the damage. And so forth.

When you attack with a shield as an improvised weapon, you also retain the +2 AC bonus for it.

However an improvised weapon is not a light weapon so it can't be used with TWF, as you can only use light weapons when TWF.

Dual wielder removes the restriction on weilding two light weapons at once, but the 'design intent' of Dual weilder is for it not to apply to improvised weapons (for some reason). Its up to the DM if he allows a PC to dual weild improvised weapons as well as axes/ nunchucks/ swords/ warhammers/ clubs/ picks with the feat.

I have no problems allowing a PC to dual weild improvised weapons (presuming he has the DW feat, which is woefully suboptimal as is in any event).

If he can handle a warhammer in each hand, then he can handle a fencepost in each hand too.

Shield master is already great as it is.

You cant use Shield master and TWF in the same round in any event. But if I was to go S+B i'd take both for completeness.