Speculation about "the feelz" of D&D 4th Edition

Well, let's leave the edition wars behind
You may not realize it, but you've yet to say anything in this thread that h4ters hadn't said thousands of times before. It's a tall order, leaving behind such a concerted campaign of misinformation.

, and approach this in a phenomenological fashion: people threw irrational hissy fits over feeling dissociated...but that doesn't mean they didn't feel that way. What is that caused that emotional reaction? As someone who experienced that in a low key way, that's the interesting question to me: why?
It's easy for me to empathize with the stereotypical 'why' in the case of grognards. I played this game from the beginning or darn near, for 25+ years it didn't change that much, it had problems, nothing's perfect, but a lot of other games tried to do better and got nowhere - now you want to change the game and get rid of those 'problems?' That's as much as telling me I've been an idiot for 25+ years, playing a broken game. How dare you.

For that matter, I'm not much harder to empathize with the stereotypical optimizer reaction. 3e characters were awesomely customizable, and the better you were at customizing them, the better your character. It takes a lot of work to master the game, it's part of the fun of it, sometimes most of the fun of it is in finding the optimal build, not the inevitable results of playing the optimal build. It all changes incrementally as the game expands, but to just throw all that away all at once and re-start from 0? "'T ain't right, 't ain't fair, 't ain't proper, 't ain't fitting." (Yeah, D&D wasn't the only thing from the 70s that's come back lately.)

That and, "Seriously, WotC, /again/? 3.5 wasn't a blatant enough money-grab, you have to go and roll another edition and soak us all for core books /again/?!?" ;P

"Balance" only goes so far;
People often aren't even talking about the same things when they say 'balance,' as rapidly becomes evident when you compare visions of what 'perfect balance' might be like, for instance. ;)

The definition I like to use for balance is that a game is better-balanced, the more choices it presents to players that are both meaningful and viable. (On the flip side, a meaningless, but viable choice would be 'chaff' the choice exists, but it doesn't matter, while the really pernicious examples are choices that seam meaningful but are non-viable they're the 'traps' that games can be notorious for, and the ultimate balance-bomb is the obvious-best choice, which renders all others non-viable.)

balancing knights in shining armor with Merlin is always going to be relative; taking it too far just isn't realistic.
'Realistic' is an oxymoron in that comparison. At best, you can have genre-fidelity or successful modeling of the source of inspiration. D&D, ironically, especially so when it's been imbalanced most strongly in the direction of overpowering the Wizards inspired by Merlin, did not model Merlin at all well. Not that a D&D wizard of reasonable level couldn't perform any magical feat attributed to Merlin in Le Mort d'Arthur, just that he'd have a lot of spell left over after doing them all in one day. Similarly, Gandalf, 5th level Magic-user. ;) (OK, that's an ancient one, sorry.)

5E achieves sufficient balance
'Sufficient balance' can be, like the sufficient support you find in it for totem, none. That is, if balance is something you actively abhor.

But, seriously, 5e neither aims for nor achieves balance on it's own, neither class or encounter balance. Balance, if desired, is left up to the DM to impose. It /does/ give the DM plenty of latitude, and a few quite powerful tools, to do that, though.

while allowing for difference: it also throws major roadblocks in front of charop, and makes the rewards for that limited (see earlier about magic weapons)
Relative to 3e. Which is like saying "come on in, it's nice and cool in this volcano - compared to the heart of the sun!"

That is one way that 4E does evolve straight from 3.x: it takes what 3.x said was mandatory, and really pushed that to the next level: stuff we ignored like magic item reqs or wealth by level. Guidelines, was how we saw them: easily ignored. 4E did a lot more to get in the way of playing that way
Fairly early on 4e introduced Inherent Bonuses, which let the DM flip an option switch and reduce or do away with magic items entirely without upsetting 'da math.' A big part of that was that magic items were toned down in terms of both absolute power and importance in customizing characters (with the slack taken up by powers and other build options), but also in that there weren't magical choices that were obligatory (so a party lacking a caster with CLW, had to have a wand for healing, for the most obvious instance).

So, you could /very/ easily ignore wealth/level & magic item expectations in 4e, and do so without much impacting the range of adventures and challenges you could undertake.

Going the other way, being profligate with magic, could temporarily put the PCs ahead of the curve, but not insanely so - eventually they'd grow into overpowered gear.

The magic-independence didn't start or end with items, either. You could run an all-martial party with no casters and still handle challenges. You could run a campaign world that had little or even on magic just as smoothly.

It was one of the ways in which 4e supported /more/ styles than D&D had before or has since. And, it's a direct consequence of it being more robustly balanced. There wasn't a single tight formula - you must have a cleric to provide healing/turn undead and a thief to be killed by find/remove traps; you must have +X weapons and a caster or Wand of Y & Scrolls of PDQ; you must have 'days' of 6-8 med/hard encounters punctuated by 2-3 short rests - that was obligatory to keep the game on an even keel dictating the shape or pacing of the campaign and conceptual choices of the players.

But in my experience...it just isn't that hard for new people to get into the swing of things? Never played in a store/con environment, just home groups, so mine is more anecdotal, I reckon.
It varies some, but the bottom line is most people don't play D&D. Most of them never try it, most of those who do don't play it long. Part of the hobby's mystique, perhaps, is that even as 'nerd culture' mainstreams, D&D is staying comparatively insular.
 
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You may not realize it, but you've yet to say anything in this thread that h4ters hadn't said thousands of times before. It's a tall order, leaving behind such a concerted campaign of misinformation.

, and approach this in a phenomenological fashion: people threw irrational hissy fits over feeling dissociated...but that doesn't mean they didn't feel that way. What is that caused that emotional reaction? As someone who experienced that in a low key way, that's the interesting question to me: why?

People often aren't even talking about the same things when they say 'balance,' as rapidly becomes evident when you compare visions of what 'perfect balance' might be like, for instance. ;)

The definition I like to use for balance is that a game is better-balanced, the more choices it presents to players that are both meaningful and viable. (On the flip side, a meaningless, but viable choice would be 'chaff' the choice exists, but it doesn't matter, while the really pernicious examples are choices that seam meaningful but are non-viable they're the 'traps' that games can be notorious for, and the ultimate balance-bomb is the obvious-best choice, which renders all others non-viable.)

'Realistic' is an oxymoron in that comparison. At best, you can have genre-fidelity or successful modeling of the source of inspiration. D&D, ironically, especially so when it's been imbalanced most strongly in the direction of overpowering the Wizards inspired by Merlin, did not model Merlin at all well. Not that a D&D wizard of reasonable level couldn't perform any magical feat attributed to Merlin in Le Mort d'Arthur, just that he'd have a lot of spell left over after doing them all in one day. Similarly, Gandalf, 5th level Magic-user. ;) (OK, that's an ancient one, sorry.)

'Sufficient balance' can be, like the sufficient support you find in it for totem, none. That is, if balance is something you actively abhor.

But, seriously, 5e neither aims for nor achieves balance on it's own, neither class or encounter balance. Balance, if desired, is left up to the DM to impose. It /does/ give the DM plenty of latitude, and a few quite powerful tools, to do that, though.

Relative to 3e. Which is like saying "come on in, it's nice and cool in this volcano - compared to the heart of the sun!"

Fairly early on 4e introduced Inherent Bonuses, which let the DM flip an option switch and reduce or do away with magic items entirely without upsetting 'da math.' A big part of that was that magic items were toned down in terms of both absolute power and importance in customizing characters (with the slack taken up by powers and other build options), but also in that there weren't magical choices that were obligatory (so a party lacking a caster with CLW, had to have a wand for healing, for the most obvious instance).

So, you could /very/ easily ignore wealth/level & magic item expectations in 4e, and do so without much impacting the range of adventures and challenges you could undertake.

Going the other way, being profligate with magic, could temporarily put the PCs ahead of the curve, but not insanely so - eventually they'd grow into overpowered gear.

The magic-independence didn't start or end with items, either. You could run an all-martial party with no casters and still handle challenges. You could run a campaign world that had little or even on magic just as smoothly.

It was one of the ways in which 4e supported /more/ styles than D&D had before or has since. And, it's a direct consequence of it being more robustly balanced. There wasn't a single tight formula - you must have a cleric to provide healing/turn undead and a thief to be killed by find/remove traps; you must have +X weapons and a caster or Wand of Y & Scrolls of PDQ; you must have 'days' of 6-8 med/hard encounters punctuated by 2-3 short rests - that was obligatory to keep the game on an even keel dictating the shape or pacing of the campaign and conceptual choices of the players.

It varies some, but the bottom line is most people don't play D&D. Most of them never try it, most of those who do don't play it long. Part of the hobby's mystique, perhaps, is that even as 'nerd culture' mainstreams, D&D is staying comparatively insular.
When I play, I have done Champion, Sorcerer and Wizard so far; the Champion contributed the most to the party. I call that balance?

As an alternate magic system, I prefer DCC, where choosing to cast spells can kill you or worse, as a balancing mechanism. Seems fair.

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When I play, I have done Champion, Sorcerer and Wizard so far; the Champion contributed the most to the party. I call that balance?
You can call it macaroni, if you want. ;)
I'd call it* "a result inconsistent with the mechanics & guidelines of the standard game."
Which isn't a dig: one of the great strengths of 5e is that the DM has latitude to stray very far from the standard game, indeed.








* OK, I'd also call it "an unverifiable anecdote from an anonymous internet source."
 

You can call it macaroni, if you want. ;)
I'd call it* "a result inconsistent with the mechanics & guidelines of the standard game."
Which isn't a dig: one of the great strengths of 5e is that the DM has latitude to stray very far from the standard game, indeed.








* OK, I'd also call it "an unverifiable anecdote from an anonymous internet source."
Heh, that last part is just about right; but I think the game is designed to have that effect in play: martial are not being overshadowed by spellcasters at our table.

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But grognards don't grow a playerbase, they are a set group who only produce X sales... new players do so we are roughly 2+ years out from the release of the corebooks and they are still selling like hotcakes... which doesn't make sense if they only hold an attraction for grognards... irregardless of what Hasbro and WotC want.

http://icv2.com/articles/games/view/21062/interview-wotc-ceo-greg-leeds-part-1

What are the results of that multi-year strategy?
Over-all our business is up significantly. I think anyone you talk to about what’s going on with Magic and D&D will tell you that we are having very, very strong sales.

from part 2 said:
We will have and have had occasional turnover, but D&D is a healthy, thriving business on the role-playing side and will continue to be.

5e sales right? Nope, Greg Leeds is referring to sales of 4e 3 months before they announced that they were doing Next...4e's got very, very strong sales and is a healthy and thriving business. Who'd want to mess with that?

Part of the problem with WotC is that if they admitted weakness on a product line, the vultures come out, both externally and internally. So they never admit weakness until they actually have to do it. So when they say things are selling like hotcakes, that's meaningless. If they don't come up with a big revenue stream that matches the core book sales in years 1/2, things will happen. Not now, but the new adventures don't appear to be anywhere near the sales of the core books even now.
 


While the spellcasters have awesome powers in theory, in practice hitting things dead is way more effective
Reducing targets to 0 hps, typically through focus-fire is a solid, basic strategy in all editions of D&D. In 5e, there's few builds who can't pursue that strategy pretty darn well. It's not like you're forced with a stark choice between casting spells and doing high DPR. It's just, if you choose casting, you'll have a lot of other things you could do with your spells, too...

; and everybody has skills: balanced doesn't mean the same.
Skills under BA are prettymuch the same all 'round, the same skills, similar checks thanks to BA (Expertise being the stand-out). And every class in 5e uses spells, from sub-sets of the same list. And everyone's proficiency bonus advances exactly the same, in lock-step with level.

But, hey, even the same doesn't necessarily mean balanced.

But grognards don't grow a playerbase, they are a set group who only produce X sales...
Greg Leeds is referring to sales of 4e 3 months before they announced that they were doing Next...4e's got very, very strong sales and is a healthy and thriving business.
Nod. He didn't even necessarily need to lie. Sales can be up, and they can be strong in an historical sense, but still fall far short of revenue targets or fail to deliver on RoI because of high expenses, or whatever. You can always make a story sound a little better by telling only part of it.

But grognards don't grow a playerbase, they are a set group who only produce X sales...
We kinda do, a bit. People can come to D&D a few different ways, but one of the best, IMHO, is to play with an established group or be introduced to it by an experienced (and good) DM. By bringing back lots of experienced grognard DM's, 5e ups the chance of new players having a good first experience with one of them. Whether that balances out the game being potentially confusing/frustrating/un-intuitive/etc to new players without such an introduction is an obvious question, but it seem to be working* at the FLGS, here.

So when they say things are selling like hotcakes, that's meaningless.
It could mean selling for 2.99 a stack, with whipped butter & imitation maple syrup.

If they don't come up with a big revenue stream that matches the core book sales in years 1/2, things will happen. Not now, but the new adventures don't appear to be anywhere near the sales of the core books even now.
I know, I know, the repetition of every disaster starts with someone saying "this time it'll be different," but, really, this time it'll be different. No, seriously. The thing that I'm guessing has changed is expectations: Hasbro threw a bunch of development money at D&D in the hopes of huge increases in revenue stream and they didn't materialize (which wouldn't have been a surprise if they understood the clannish RPG market at all, but, whatever, lose money and learn, right?).
They no longer have that expectation. I think the plan now is more like: spend as little as possible on D&D while keeping the IP out there, and invest any profits you may get in more promising opportunities.











* I think. I haven't, like, gathered data on all 40+ players showing up every Wednesday, nor even assured myself it's the same 40+ players every week (unlikely, but I can't say I've noticed shocking turn-over). But, I assume the ones closer to my age are fellow grognards: I've talked to some and they last played with 2e; and the younger ones new or at least new-ish (the one's I've asked have all had past experience with 3e or 4e. (One charmingly said "Oh, I've never played D&D before - just Pathfinder..." She's running a table, now, actually.)
 
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It could mean selling for 2.99 a stack, with whipped butter & imitation maple syrup.

Lol

I know, I know, the repetition of every disaster starts with someone saying "this time it'll be different," but, really, this time it'll be different. No, seriously. The thing that I'm guessing has changed is expectations: Hasbro threw a bunch of development money at D&D in the hopes of huge increases in revenue stream and got only modest ones (which wouldn't have been a surprise if they understood the clannish RPG market at all, but, whatever, lose money and learn, right?). They no longer have that expectation. I think the plan now is more like: spend as little as possible on D&D while keeping the IP out there, and invest any profits you may get in more promising opportunities.

Right. Except I don't think it is an accident that every 4 years they come out with a new/revised edition?
 

Right. Except I don't think it is an accident that every 4 years they come out with a new/revised edition?
2-4 years.

;(

My vain hope this time around is that they've realized they'll never make real money off that trick, so have settled for just keeping costs really low. The up-side will be a stable, positive image for the brand. Instead of squeezing some money out of the fanbase every 2-4 years or so, at the price of them nerdraging at you, accept that they're not a gold mine and try to develop the IP in some other medium with more promise.

Time will tell. We should have a "countdown to 5.5" doomsday clock somewhere...
 

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