Pulling the plug

[Tony Vargas]

Yeah I definitely felt like this with 4th edition, and honestly I wish I had come to a similar conclusion as you have before investing so much money into it. Others have noted that those who don't like 5e tend not to get as emotionally charged about leaving it

Nod. The edition war must been have driven by something more than the mere suspicion of late-adopters, habitual negativity of critics, and reflexive defensiveness of apologists that has been par for the course with every rev-roll, as there was an element of spite to it that became very uncompromising and disrespectful, even arguably destructive.

Contrasted with the edition war, 5e's suffering of the same slings & arrows of outrageous fans as every other edition looks like a golden age of peace and goodwill.

but I'd also take note that there doesn't seem to be the same need in the 5e fanbase, as there was with previous editions, to tell you how you're just playing the edition "wrong" and that if you'd play it "correctly" you'd really come around to loving it.

Oh, that 'apologist' impulse is here, still. It's practically a constant - I've been accused of engaging in it, myself. 'Playing it right' in 5e is just "you're the DM, you see a problem, you fix it!" It may not always be all that helpful an answer to every problem for every DM, but for those DMs who have the innate talent or have spent the time honing our art, it /works/, and gives you the results you want - can give you /exactly/ the result you want. It's not really any less true for any past edition, either, the DM has always had that prerogative, whether the game acknowledges it, ignores it, or depends upon it. In 5e it means modding & authoring rules, or tossing out rules almost entirely & running on rulings (a mode I find liberating), in 4e it meant re-skinning (ditto, oddly), in 3e it meant swimming against the current of the RAW zietgiest (as exhausting as the mixed metaphor sounds). In the TSR era, it meant (interesting coincidence) modding & authoring rules - we called 'em "variants" back in the day.

It's one of the reasons I think I tried and argued for so long about 4th edition.

The rationalizations for the edition war are many and often as intellectually dishonest as the depths of the war, itself, could be. They do not diminish nor excuse the extremes it was taken to.

Personally 5e is closest WotC has ever gotten to what I want out of D&D and I'm on a great second campaign (and will be starting another game in October with a different group of players) that I am co-DM'ing with a DM 1st timer.. but everyone's tastes are different and sometimes you (as well as others) just have to realize certain games aren't your cup of tea.

Nod. And just walk away from them without animosity, like the OP is doing. Really, almost any RPG other than D&D, you don't like it, nobody notices or cares, and you probably wouldn't think to point it out. Heck for a non-D&D RPG a negative rant isn't even such a bad thing, at least it's name exposure! Obscurity, not slander, is the biggest enemy of most other games.

OTOH, 5e isn't 'certain games,' it's a very ambitious version of the first/most-popular RPG, with a goal (among others!) of being 'for' fans of all those past editions. So, when a new player doesn't care for it, or gamer who's never much liked D&D isn't won over by it, that's too bad, but when a fan of one past edition - or worse, a fan of several past editions, is dissapointed by it and can't get the play experience their looking for from it, that's a failure.

And, when such a fan finds an issue with 5e, finding a solution - since the point of DM Empowerment is that you're, well, Empowered to implement solutions - is far more helpful than telling them the game's just not for them. Because it is for them, every bit as much as it is for you or me.

And besides, I already have a modern version of D&D that I enjoy running, that is not even named D&D: 13th Age.

13th Age is my F20 game of choice too. I have fun with 5e, though. It's just never going to be my main game.

The parallels between 5e and 13A are really kinda remarkable. Both do give the DM a lot of freedom, just in different areas. Both had very similar goals, but achieved them differently and with different degrees of success. For instance, 5e evokes the classic game even more than 13A's 'love letter,' while 13A handles TotM better than 5e, even though it's less adamant about it being the 'default.'

 

[Jacob Lewis]

Just a quick update. My PHB sold this morning online. Not surprised considering it is the most useful book of any edition. And that officially marks the point of no return. Not saying never, but it would take something major to change my mind and reinvest. I don't know what that is so don't ask.

Still feeling odd about it, but content with the decision. I'll get back to the discussion at hand when I have some more time.

 

[CydKnight]

I walked away at 2nd Edition and didn't return until 5th Edition. We all have different interests and experiences and they are constantly changing, evolving. Do what is right for you.

 

[Imaro]

Nod. The edition war must been have driven by something more than the mere suspicion of late-adopters, habitual negativity of critics, and reflexive defensiveness of apologists that has been par for the course with every rev-roll, as there was an element of spite to it that became very uncompromising and disrespectful, even arguably destructive.

Contrasted with the edition war, 5e's suffering of the same slings & arrows of outrageous fans as every other edition looks like a golden age of peace and goodwill.

Oh, that 'apologist' impulse is here, still. It's practically a constant - I've been accused of engaging in it, myself. 'Playing it right' in 5e is just "you're the DM, you see a problem, you fix it!" It may not always be all that helpful an answer to every problem for every DM, but for those DMs who have the innate talent or have spent the time honing our art, it /works/, and gives you the results you want - can give you /exactly/ the result you want. It's not really any less true for any past edition, either, the DM has always had that prerogative, whether the game acknowledges it, ignores it, or depends upon it. In 5e it means modding & authoring rules, or tossing out rules almost entirely & running on rulings (a mode I find liberating), in 4e it meant re-skinning (ditto, oddly), in 3e it meant swimming against the current of the RAW zietgiest (as exhausting as the mixed metaphor sounds). In the TSR era, it meant (interesting coincidence) modding & authoring rules - we called 'em "variants" back in the day.

The rationalizations for the edition war are many and often as intellectually dishonest as the depths of the war, itself, could be. They do not diminish nor excuse the extremes it was taken to.

Nod. And just walk away from them without animosity, like the OP is doing. Really, almost any RPG other than D&D, you don't like it, nobody notices or cares, and you probably wouldn't think to point it out. Heck for a non-D&D RPG a negative rant isn't even such a bad thing, at least it's name exposure! Obscurity, not slander, is the biggest enemy of most other games.

OTOH, 5e isn't 'certain games,' it's a very ambitious version of the first/most-popular RPG, with a goal (among others!) of being 'for' fans of all those past editions. So, when a new player doesn't care for it, or gamer who's never much liked D&D isn't won over by it, that's too bad, but when a fan of one past edition - or worse, a fan of several past editions, is dissapointed by it and can't get the play experience their looking for from it, that's a failure.

And, when such a fan finds an issue with 5e, finding a solution - since the point of DM Empowerment is that you're, well, Empowered to implement solutions - is far more helpful than telling them the game's just not for them. Because it is for them, every bit as much as it is for you or me.

Uhm... ok. I'm not really going to get into a back and forth with you about the editions, IMO that's the quickest way into an edition war. You've got your perspective on it and I've got mine... of course you 've said your peace multiple times in this thread and I didn't really feel the need to comment on it... but to each his own.

EDIT: If there's one thing that really, IMO, drove the edition wars it was the incessant need of many on both sides to "prove" through debate that someone's subjective feelings and experiences were/are "wrong". Instead of accepting them for what they are and moving on.

 

[Imaro]

Just a quick update. My PHB sold this morning online. Not surprised considering it is the most useful book of any edition. And that officially marks the point of no return. Not saying never, but it would take something major to change my mind and reinvest. I don't know what that is so don't ask.

Still feeling odd about it, but content with the decision. I'll get back to the discussion at hand when I have some more time.

Hey I'm in the market for a used DMG and Monster Manual for that new DM I was speaking about in my earlier post. PM me if you're looking for a buyer and are offering it for a good price.

 

[Tony Vargas]

If there's one thing that really, IMO, drove the edition wars it was the incessant need of many on both sides to "prove" through debate that someone's subjective feelings and experiences were/are "wrong". Instead of accepting them for what they are and moving on.

Agreed - though there was more than one thing, certainly, that odd impulse was a big one. But it's also not absent, today. Labeling a fact an opinion or an opinion a fact; asserting a statement as if it were objective, then defending it as subjective; starting in on a qualitative argument, then, when shown to be be inconsistent, claiming it was all subjective; etc. There's a lot of very poorly-done, even downright intellectually dishonest, logic & rhetoric on the internet.
The edition war saw far more than it's fair share.

A closely related issue, and also a very significant factor, was exactly what the OP in this thread has declined to do: reacting to a personal subjective experience, globally (the game I'm not enjoying must be fixed/replaced/defamed), by demanding a global solution, like some sort of activist.
Instead, the OP is acting on a personal subjective experience, personally (I walk away from the game I'm not enjoying) and thus solving the issue, for himself, leaving 5e untrammeled for the rest of us.

And that officially marks the point of no return. Not saying never, but it would take something major to change my mind and reinvest. I don't know what that is so don't ask.

Still feeling odd about it, but content with the decision. I'll get back to the discussion at hand when I have some more time.

I'm curious, did you primarily play 5e or run it?
I find that it's much more engaging to run, personally, because it tickles my nostalgia for the long AD&D campaign I ran back in the day.

 

[Imaro]

Agreed - though there was more than one thing, certainly, that odd impulse was a big one. But it's also not absent, today. Labeling a fact an opinion or an opinion a fact; asserting a statement as if it were objective, then defending it as subjective; starting in on a qualitative argument, then, when shown to be be inconsistent, claiming it was all subjective; etc. There's a lot of very poorly-done, even downright intellectually dishonest, logic & rhetoric on the internet.
The edition war saw far more than it's fair share.

It also saw its fair share of proponents that just couldn't let someone not like something without forcing engagement and insinuating dishonesty, inconsistency, claims of fake subjectivity or whatever other label made an opinion they didn't agree with seem "wrong". Good thing we're past that at this point.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It also saw its fair share of proponents that just couldn't let someone not like something without forcing engagement ...

How do you 'force engagement?'
I decide I don't like a game anymore. I post.. "I'm not really so into this game anymore, bye..." and stop checking the forum where that game is discussed, since it's no longer of interest to me.
What do you do? Subpoena my IP to find out where I live?

 

[Imaro]

How do you 'force engagement?'
I decide I don't like a game anymore. I post.. "I'm not really so into this game anymore, bye..." and stop checking the forum where that game is discussed, since it's no longer of interest to me.
What do you do? Subpoena my IP to find out where I live?

Force can mean persuasive power or the power to convince which is pretty easy to do when someone is speaking to their feelings about something they are passionate about (i.e. their hobby). Will it work on everyone, nope, nothing is 100% but there are so many unique factors (psychological, social, etc.) that go into getting any particular individual to do something they may not want to do or will regret later that it's impossible to predict what can force someone to take said actions... This alongside the many examples of people coerced or convinced into doing something they regret or didn't want to do that happen in day to day life... that it's kind of silly to claim it can't be done.

Also on a side note... not all forums separate their forums by specific game, so leaving the forum is not always an option if you still would like to discuss the wider umbrella of D&D or rpg's.

Anyway, I'm unsure what this tangent has to do with the OP's decision... or even the general discussion that has arisen about deciding a game isn't for you and being ok with that... if anything this tangent seems to have spiraled into pointless debate for the sake of debate so consider this me stepping away from it and hoping we can get back to more relevant conversation.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Anyway, I'm unsure what this tangent has to do with the OP's decision... or even the general discussion that has arisen about deciding a game isn't for you and being ok with that...

Some of us complemented the OP on the way he managed to phrase his rejection of 5e without actually attacking it. A feat that's really only remarkable in contrast to the dismal standards of the edition war....

...for which you've been trying to make excuses, the latest being they were 'forced' into 'engagement.'

if anything this tangent seems to have spiraled into pointless debate for the sake of debate so consider this me stepping away from it and hoping we can get back to more relevant conversation.

How dare you! I cast Force Engagement!