jaelis
Oh this is where the title goes?
She is using special houseruled items to let her load the crossbows with no free hand, and they only hold so many bolts.
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D&D 5E CoS removed bonus action to two weapon fighting on attack my thoughts.
- Thread starter Helldritch
- Start date
She is using special houseruled items to let her load the crossbows with no free hand, and they only hold so many bolts.
Greenstone.Walker
Adventurer
Ahh, I misread that. Sorry.
Helldritch
Hero
To be able to shoot that many bolts, Mei invented special bolts with special clip on straps. She makes her own bolts so nope, she can't buy any "normal" hand xbolt as they won't fit her hand xbows. This was the condition for removing the bonus action on the off hand. This allows her to ignore the off hand bonus to attack requirement and allows her to shoot 4 bolts each round. (she started at three bolts.) So no (again), she won't be able to buy a 100000000 darts. With the mending cantrip we ruled that only one quarter of her bolts are lost each combat. (some are simply lost in the distance, others are blown to bits and unrecoverable etc...).
I hope it clarified things for you?
Ho, and how many hand xbolt can you safely have on you without loosing a round or two to get more in your back pack? 20? 40? a hundred? We ruled 20-24 just like arrows and xbow bolts.
On hindsight and from what we see at the table, the removal of the bonus action requirement for the off hand isn't that much of an advantage. It even puts dual weilding a bit more closer to the heavy weapon master. Battle master with dual weilding would now be able attack with their off hand and would be able to use their manoeuvers that require the bonus action (that would otherwise be impossible). Ranger would be able to use their bonus action to move the hunter's mark without loosing an attack. Small advantages that could matter.
I hope it clarified things for you?
Ho, and how many hand xbolt can you safely have on you without loosing a round or two to get more in your back pack? 20? 40? a hundred? We ruled 20-24 just like arrows and xbow bolts.
On hindsight and from what we see at the table, the removal of the bonus action requirement for the off hand isn't that much of an advantage. It even puts dual weilding a bit more closer to the heavy weapon master. Battle master with dual weilding would now be able attack with their off hand and would be able to use their manoeuvers that require the bonus action (that would otherwise be impossible). Ranger would be able to use their bonus action to move the hunter's mark without loosing an attack. Small advantages that could matter.
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jaelis
Oh this is where the title goes?
Just to be clear, you are aware that you are playing with two separate house rules? One is that the extra attack from TWF does not require a bonus action, the other that you can reload a hand crossbow even if you have no free hand. Which is fine, just that you seem to be conflating them a bit which can be confusing.
Helldritch
Hero
Not at all. The house rule is: Two weapon fighting style removes the bonus action required to attack.
The special bandolier just allows her to ignore the amunition property for a time. In that case it is directly related to the number of hand xbow she could possibly make on such a bandolier which was 6 for a total of 18, add the two pre loaded bolts and this rise her number of bolts to 20 or the equivalent of a quiver. It takes her 1 minute to reload her bandolier.
The end result is a lot less impressive than it could've led me to think with my "white room" calculations. With the anticipated SS feat, she could've gone off the roof with her dmg output but the fact that she is using the TWFstyle instead of Archery style makes the SS feat effectively a -7 hit. A lot less impressive than a -3 to hit if she had taken the archery style.
On low AC opponent she is really dangerous. Especialy if hunter's mark, colossus slayer and sneak attack can kick in. In theory, she can deal 4d6 + 4d6 (hunter's mark) + 1d6 (sneak) + 1d8 (colossus) + 16 (dex) + 40 (sharp shooter) for an average of : 92. But from what we see at the table it is not the case. The higher in levels she will get, the more she will hit (as it should be) thus keeping her on par with the other characters. For the moment, she hits a lot less than I had anticipated.
The special bandolier just allows her to ignore the amunition property for a time. In that case it is directly related to the number of hand xbow she could possibly make on such a bandolier which was 6 for a total of 18, add the two pre loaded bolts and this rise her number of bolts to 20 or the equivalent of a quiver. It takes her 1 minute to reload her bandolier.
The end result is a lot less impressive than it could've led me to think with my "white room" calculations. With the anticipated SS feat, she could've gone off the roof with her dmg output but the fact that she is using the TWFstyle instead of Archery style makes the SS feat effectively a -7 hit. A lot less impressive than a -3 to hit if she had taken the archery style.
On low AC opponent she is really dangerous. Especialy if hunter's mark, colossus slayer and sneak attack can kick in. In theory, she can deal 4d6 + 4d6 (hunter's mark) + 1d6 (sneak) + 1d8 (colossus) + 16 (dex) + 40 (sharp shooter) for an average of : 92. But from what we see at the table it is not the case. The higher in levels she will get, the more she will hit (as it should be) thus keeping her on par with the other characters. For the moment, she hits a lot less than I had anticipated.
CorporateSlave
First Post
Helldritch said:
Hello everyone, first post, but since I play a similar character I thought this would be a good place for an initial comment. Surely there are two house rules in play here - the one allowing the off hand TWF attack without a bonus action, and one allowing the X-Bow Expert off hand shot to apply to TWF? My DM does allow me the off hand TWF attack without a bonus action (as it is published in a Homebrew list of Feats his campaign uses), but still maintains that the off hand Hand X-Bow attack does require a bonus action since that ability comes from the X-Bow Expert feat, and is NOT TWF as the PHB specifies TWF as melee attacks.
I ask just in case there is some well known UA or Homebrew that I've missed, and I should be hitting my DM up for "free" off hand X-Bow attacks
Helldritch
Hero
Hello everyone, first post, but since I play a similar character I thought this would be a good place for an initial comment. Surely there are two house rules in play here - the one allowing the off hand TWF attack without a bonus action, and one allowing the X-Bow Expert off hand shot to apply to TWF? My DM does allow me the off hand TWF attack without a bonus action (as it is published in a Homebrew list of Feats his campaign uses), but still maintains that the off hand Hand X-Bow attack does require a bonus action since that ability comes from the X-Bow Expert feat, and is NOT TWF as the PHB specifies TWF as melee attacks.
I ask just in case there is some well known UA or Homebrew that I've missed, and I should be hitting my DM up for "free" off hand X-Bow attacks
No you did not.
This is entirely a homebrew from part. I was a bit concerned of the potential at first but now... Here is a recap of the character.
Mei
The goal was to make a character weilding dual hand crossbows. The character is a (rogue/ranger) monster hunter with a nack for building interesting things. She was built with creating shenanigans in mind just like the bandoliers, the special bolts that could be loaded as part of the attack (just like the bows do with arrows) thus ignoring the free hand to reload but only for a set amount of bolts (in this case 18 beside the pre loaded hand xbows). In game terms she has the blacksmithing skills and the alchemist skills. She also has a Shokuno (chineese xbow with a magazine able to hold 10 bolts) that has special amunition like glass bolts filled with acid, holy water and whatever she fancies (the different magazines are painted in different colors).
She is now level 7. While dual weilding two hand crossbows, she can attack twice with her main hand (1 base attack + 1 from extra attack feature). She has 1 offhand attack (dual weilding style) and since she has the crossbow expert feat, she has a bonus action to shoot a fourth time with her off hand crossbow. You can imagine that she now burns through her ammunitions quite fast. To offset this, she is now dual weilding a short sword with a hand crossbow.
This makes up for a very interesting character. My main concern was that she might get too powerful but it is not the case. The fact that she is a dual weilder and not an archer makes the Sharp Shooter feat a bit less interesting on medium to high AC. She is only using the SS feature when she knows the opponent's AC is relatively low (below 14) With the SS feat, she needs to roll a 11 to hit an AC of 13. She is at 16 dex. so she only has a +7 to hit whereas an archer style character would have +9 to hit. With the -5 penalty she drops to +2 to hit. This makes her miss her targets quite often.
So far, the removal of the bonus action and the bandolier are not game breakers. In fact, it is surprisingly balanced. I hope it is of some help for you.
CorporateSlave
First Post
No you did not.
While dual weilding two hand crossbows, she can attack twice with her main hand (1 base attack + 1 from extra attack feature). She has 1 offhand attack (dual weilding style) and since she has the crossbow expert feat, she has a bonus action to shoot a fourth time with her off hand crossbow.
Ah, thanks for the clarification, I was missing that bit - she can actually fire twice with the off-hand X-bow as well! My character alternates between the dual hand X-bows and dual swords, and while in either case I can make 3 attacks... in melee the off hand attack is now "free" and I can use my Bonus Action elsewhere, which makes the melee option often slightly better. I can see why you were concerned that adding a whole extra attack might be overpowered in your case (4 attacks is supposed to be a Fighter's all powerful capstone after all...but part of that is the potential for combining it with two consecutive Action Surges I suppose, which clearly could not work in this case). Glad its working out!
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