D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

[CapnZapp]

Fireball and Meteor Swarm are outliers. Treating them as the baseline and everything else as garbage is a very narrow take on blasting.

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[Treantmonklvl20]

Fireball and Meteor Swarm are outliers. Treating them as the baseline and everything else as garbage is a very narrow take on blasting.

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I will agree that Meteor Swarm is definitely an outlier - there is no other blast that comes anywhere near the damage at that level.

Fireball is a little less clear cut as there are other spells doing similar or equal damage for the level, but it's certainly a standout for blasting, so we can call it an outlier too.

My question to you is this: Should they be outliers?

Compare Fireball to other 3rd level (non-blast) spells, is it overpowered? Is it unique in power? If we are comparing it to 3rd level spells in general, it ceases to become an outlier for power. I would argue it's not even the best 3rd level spell.

Now compare Meteor Swarm to other 9th level (non-blast) spells, is it overpowered? Is it unique in power? My opinion on this is clear enough, if you look at my guide, of the 12 9th level spells, I rated 4 higher than Meteor Swarm, which puts it slightly above average. Not an outlier by any means when we remove the "blasts only" part of the comparison.

So if Fireball and Meteor Swarm are not uniquely powered as spells in general, why shouldn't they be a baseline when determining what blasts to consider?

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

Thanks for your assessment Treantmonk!

I'm not trying to say that blasting is a particularly good use of spell slots for Wizards. I don't even think it is a good use of spell slots for most casters. But there are not too many alternatives if you multi class and want to get something out of those spell slots.

This is hard to rebutt, as I don't know the specifics of the multiclass you are referring to. However, let me provide one example.

Lets say you mutliclass Cleric and Wizard. The exact split is not relevant, but lets say you have access to 3rd level spells in each class but have some 4th, 5th and 6th level spell slots (with no 6th level spells). You want to use those slots effectively, and are looking to do damage with them. So do you cast a fireball or erupting earth?

The answer of course is neither. As it happens, Cleric blasts do not suffer the same poor scaling as Wizard blasts. Take a look at the Cleric staple Spirit Guardians. The base damage of Spirit Guardians is 3d8, which is of course terrible, but the value of this spell is that it is 3d8 per round for up to 100 rounds with one spell. Generally, in my group, I find that the average Spirit Guardians spell gets between 2 and 3 rounds of damage, so between 6d8 and 8d8 damage for a 3rd level slot - decent value.

Now with Spirit Guardians, damage increases 1d8 per level slot. Assuming the same 2-3 rounds of value, that's an increase of 2-3d8 per level.

Have you heard that Spirit Guardians becomes broken if cast at higher levels? Neither have I. The 2-3d8 is good value, but not inappropriate value. This Wizard/Cleric is far better to use that 6th level slot with a Cleric blast than any Wizard blast.

That's one example - of course, multiclassing can take many forms and the analysis would be different with a different mix. There may be a case where Erupting Earth is your best choice for a 6th level slot - but I would argue that is unfortunate.

Comparing Erupting Earth to Meteor is kind of unfair because Meteor scales way better then anything else.

Better than other blast spells? Agreed.
Better than other wizard spells? I disagree.

If you look at all blast options in spell slots ranging from level 5-8, Erupting Earth is still the best.

The least rotten of rotten shrimp, I addressed this. I'm not eating it.

It is an option for multi classed character who want to make use of higher level spell slots but lack higher level spells. It is probably the best and most versatile spell if you want to use a level 5-8 slot for blasting.

As I showed earlier in this post, it's not even that.

 

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

The builds I was tinkering with where Eldritch Knight/Bladesinger (aiming at 10/10) and Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger (aiming at 12/8).
Both will have higher spell slots and only wizard spells. The usual scenario is 3rd or 4th level spells and 5th or 6th level slots for levels 10-15 (+1 to all if you reach really high levels).

I do see your point. What are good alternatives then? What do you think are the least bad scaling wizard spells in slots 5-8?
Animate Dead seems to scale well. Hold person is situational. Banishment should be decent too. Are there any more?

 

[jgsugden]

I think we're approaching these spells incorrectly. They're not there to tackle the main foe, they're there to sweep out the supporting cast. Once my spellcasters have 3rd level spells, it is rare that I do not have fireball prepared, but it is also rare that I cast it as an attempt to reduce the 'big bad' in an encounter to 0 hp. Sure, I'll try to catch them in it usually, but I primarily use it to sweep out the fodder and open up a path for the fighters to get to the big bad. Those supporting cast are essentially there to provide obstacles to the party, so these damage spells are really counters to typical battlefield control techniques by the DM.

What a lot of people don't realize is that there are not many fodder pieces in the 30 hp range. There is a pretty good gap between those 22 hp (ghouls and gnolls) enemies and the enemies with hps above 40 (like orogs and centaurs) That means that damage in the 30s is kind of a waste most of the time. You generally want your damage to be about 28 on average (see fireball) to clean out those 22 hp enemies with a high certainty (91% chance you'll roll high enough damage that they'll die on a failed save), or you want expected damage high enough to give you a chance to do 45 or more damage to kill those tougher fodder foes in the 40s to 60s hps total. Unfortunately, you need to use a 7th or higher level spell to get fireball above that point. That just isn't a good use of one of those rare higher level spell slots. So, fireball is rarely going to be worth casting at a higher level - and the wizard area damage spells in levels 4 to 6 don't do better than fireball, really, to get you into expected damage above 40.

There are obviously some exceptions, especially if you have a low level autodamage or area damage ability that you can generate without using your main action. However, I find this general rule to be true most of the time: Fireball is the only area damage spell you need after level 4 and you generally only need it to clean out CR 1 (and below) fodder.

I really wish they'd given evoker's a bonus to damage to make it effective - perhaps 1d6 per spell level used to cast the spell.

 

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Fireball and Meteor Swarm are outliers. Treating them as the baseline and everything else as garbage is a very narrow take on blasting.

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They are outliers because they are pretty much the only blast spells worth casting at the character levels they are obtained. And even then they are not a no brainer.

I totally agree that treating them as a baseline is a mistake, but only because that leads to the even greater mistake of believing that blast spells are decent, as a baseline assumption.

There's a place for blast spells, because every now and then something that is usually meh rises above its mediocrity.


Anyway,

Ken

 

[CapnZapp]

I will agree that Meteor Swarm is definitely an outlier - there is no other blast that comes anywhere near the damage at that level.

Fireball is a little less clear cut as there are other spells doing similar or equal damage for the level, but it's certainly a standout for blasting, so we can call it an outlier too.

My question to you is this: Should they be outliers?

Compare Fireball to other 3rd level (non-blast) spells, is it overpowered? Is it unique in power? If we are comparing it to 3rd level spells in general, it ceases to become an outlier for power. I would argue it's not even the best 3rd level spell.

Now compare Meteor Swarm to other 9th level (non-blast) spells, is it overpowered? Is it unique in power? My opinion on this is clear enough, if you look at my guide, of the 12 9th level spells, I rated 4 higher than Meteor Swarm, which puts it slightly above average. Not an outlier by any means when we remove the "blasts only" part of the comparison.

So if Fireball and Meteor Swarm are not uniquely powered as spells in general, why shouldn't they be a baseline when determining what blasts to consider?

I understand.

I just think it isn't very worthwhile to go around grumbling 99% of blaster spells can't compare to Fireball & Meteor Swarm.

Much better in that case to simply accept you're not a blaster, and go find some other spell worth your time.

Of course, this is what you have done here, Treeantmonk.

Just saying "leave the blaster role to those happy with even sub-Fire levels of damage" I guess.

The designers certainly didn't come up with dozens of non Fireball blasting spells just for them to be skipped, I mean.

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[Ovarwa]

Hi,

The builds I was tinkering with where Eldritch Knight/Bladesinger (aiming at 10/10) and Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger (aiming at 12/8).

Since we're in an optimization thread (weird that this thread is here rather than in the optimization forum), I feel comfortable pointing out that you might do better aiming at a different class split.

EK10/BS10 is a very unfortunate split. EK11 grants an extra attack, so if you're going for 10, why stop there? BS11 grants a 6th level spell; Mass Suggestion is a favorite, but you can fill your spellbook with choices since you're a wizard. I'm not convinced that EK/BS is a good multiclass to begin with, what with the redundant second attack and other issues, but 10/10 is a particularly unfortunate way to go about it.

Rogue/BS is more interesting, yet I'm not sure AT serves as well as, say, Assassin, along the lines of Assassin3/BS17, providing Improved Invisibility, 2d6 sneak attack, 2 attack/turn and a reasonably fun surprise round at character level 10.

OTOH, AT14/BS6 does provide 2 attacks. Though AT13/BS7 also provides Improved Invisibility.

Note that blast spells are *even worse* for multiclass characters of this kind, because you get them later. An 8d6 Fireball that was worth considering at character level 5 is a great waste at character level 10.

Leaving that aside, both characters you are considering are gishes. They have damage covered! Presumably, you plan to put out pain with weapons. Despite this being a God Wizard thread, with associated flavorful snark about lesser characters, dealing smackdown is part of a complete breakfast. Diluting Rogue or Fighter with BS should a) not impose dead levels and b) enhance the main thrust of your character rather than diluting it.

Because if you really want to damage stuff with Fireball, the only correct Wizard build for your first 5 character levels is Wizard 5, pick your favorite subclass. Fireball is a fine spell to spam at level 5. Increasingly less fine with every character level that passes, regardless of what slot you use.

But if you want a relatively even class split, you need to choose spells that enhance what you want to do, which is *not* be a primary spellcaster.

Both will have higher spell slots and only wizard spells. The usual scenario is 3rd or 4th level spells and 5th or 6th level slots for levels 10-15 (+1 to all if you reach really high levels).

I do see your point. What are good alternatives then? What do you think are the least bad scaling wizard spells in slots 5-8?
Animate Dead seems to scale well. Hold person is situational. Banishment should be decent too. Are there any more?

I think there are two good guides that cover this... one of them at the beginning of this very thread!

(Of course, unless you're playing to level 20, chances are you'll never see the spell slot anyway.)

Anyway,

Ken

 

[CapnZapp]

Hi,



They are outliers because they are pretty much the only blast spells worth casting at the character levels they are obtained. And even then they are not a no brainer.

I totally agree that treating them as a baseline is a mistake, but only because that leads to the even greater mistake of believing that blast spells are decent, as a baseline assumption.

There's a place for blast spells, because every now and then something that is usually meh rises above its mediocrity.


Anyway,

Ken

Imagine a game without these two exceptional spells.

Suddenly our perception shifts, and many varied blaster spells will probably be considered "best" or "good".

Whether blasting/evoking in general will be considered a weak choice is an entirely different question.

---

Look, I'm not defending the design choice to clutter the rulebook with lots of decidedly-less-than-best blasting spells.

I'm mostly just saying that blinding yourself to Fireball/Meteor Swarm doesn't strike me as a particularly worthwhile endeavor.

Besides, spells are not only there for the adventurers.

Having lots of less-good choices bring variety to NPC casters, and their relative weakness ensures that their use won't unfairly wipe out the heroes, despite enemy casters often being higher level compared to the APL (average party level).

See Power Word Killstun*, which is a crappy spell for player characters, since monsters are primarily scary because they have loads of hit points, and because PCs are often lower level compared to enemy casters.
*) I love TAM's succinct dismissal of these spells in the guide, though...

For that enemy caster BBEG however, PWK can be a very good spell. Heroes are some of the most dangerous entities on a danger-per-hitdice ratio, so removing 100 or 150 hp's worth of hero is probably an excellent spell choice, since that can autonegate a hero spellcaster, arguably the most dangerous critter of all.

Tldr lots of crappy blaster spells for NPCs to amuse the party with without necessarily TPK:ing them...

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[Guest 6801328]

An interesting exercise would be to rebalance every spell in the book...either tweaking its power or changing its level...so that folks like Treantmonk would have a hard time giving them different colors.

I think I'd play with such a home brew.

EDIT: I'd want a few other solid theorycrafters....yunru, mellored, gladius...to participate as well. (I don't always agree with their ideas, but respect their ability to dissect and parse mechanics.)