D&D 5E Cleric's Divine Intervention

[ro]

Thoughts on Divine Intervention:

What would be the impact of changing Cleric's Divine Intervention to roll a d20 rather than percentile dice?
(When I first read the description, this is what I thought it was, and thought, "Hey! That's pretty cool!" When I found that it was actually percentile dice, it was, "Oh. That's rather lame, actually.")

What if it started at 1st Level?

What if it was useful once per day rather than once every seven days?

 

[DEFCON 1]

If you do this... allow the possibility of divine intervention starting at 1st level and for it to potentially occur a couple days in a row... you pretty much devalue the ability. It's no longer an out-of-the-blue rescue from your deity in a time of great need... it's now a standard clerical ability that the cleric would expect to get every couple days to every week.

Clerics already get divine power from their deity at 1st level-- they get magical spells and a domain power. And this is for a completely newb cleric who has barely spent any time in service to this god. To then *also* give them essentially a get-out-of-jail-free card from the god every couple days as well? It's no longer special. It's not the intervention of the divine in a cleric's life... it's now just another ability the cleric gets all the time. That's why the game makes you wait until you are 10th level to get it, and even then makes it only a 10+% chance and will only happen at minimum once per week. Because it's the deity directly intervening in the cleric's life, which is not something to take for granted or expect to just always happen. And it's not something just any holy person can receive, they have to have really devoted themselves to the deity for it to even have the slightest chance of it to occur.

If the cleric wants their god to give them power every day? They get that already. They're called spells.

 

[Harzel]

Thoughts on Divine Intervention:

What would be the impact of changing Cleric's Divine Intervention to roll a d20 rather than percentile dice?
(When I first read the description, this is what I thought it was, and thought, "Hey! That's pretty cool!" When I found that it was actually percentile dice, it was, "Oh. That's rather lame, actually.")

What if it started at 1st Level?

What if it was useful once per day rather than once every seven days?

Pretty much what @DEFCON1 said. Either the effect would have to be reduced to be about the same as a single level-appropriate spell, or else it would be grossly overpowered.

EDIT: Although, back in the 1e days, there was a cleric (only 2nd or 3rd level at the time) in a game I ran who once declared that he was asking for some sort of special help from his god. I don't remember exactly what the request was, but it didn't seem too outrageous, so I told him to roll percentile dice and gave him a 1% chance of succeeding. He rolled a 100.

His god, which the player had made up himself, was Robigus, god of mold and mildew, so I'm sure the requested assistance came in a somewhat odd form, but did confer the requested aid. Interestingly, as far as I can recall, the player never tried to invoke that 'feature' again.

 

[CapnZapp]

Thoughts on Divine Intervention:

What would be the impact of changing Cleric's Divine Intervention to roll a d20 rather than percentile dice?
(When I first read the description, this is what I thought it was, and thought, "Hey! That's pretty cool!" When I found that it was actually percentile dice, it was, "Oh. That's rather lame, actually.")

What if it started at 1st Level?

What if it was useful once per day rather than once every seven days?

I think it is better to keep it as is.

The more you allow it, the more reason for the DM to devalue it.

The whole point of it being rare and difficult is to make it likely you will be granted even epic powerful sweeping changes.

As a DM I'm only inclined to let that happen once in a campaign. Which the current rules nicely lead to (unless you play all the way up to level 20 and/or play campaigns that take years of game time to resolve)

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[ro]

The more you allow it, the more reason for the DM to devalue it.

Yeah, that's a good point. I figure it can't really be OP at any level since the DM is in charge of determining what happens.

This question came from a thought experiment on making a completely pacifist cleric who would refuse to do damage. The only damage that could be dealt through the character would be through Divine Intervention: the cleric asks for aid, and the god decides to intervene by damaging the enemy. Control and healing spells would be the primary activity of the cleric, and divine intervention would not *have* to cause damage, but could.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Yeah, that's good point. I figure it can't really be OP at any level since the DM is in charge of determining what happens.

This question came from a thought experiment on making a completely pacifist cleric who would refuse to do damage. The only damage that could be dealt through the character would be through Divine Intervention: the cleric asks for aid, and the god decides to intervene by damaging the enemy. Control and healing spells would be the primary activity of the cleric, and divine intervention would not *have* to cause damage, but could.

This is something different entirely. What what I'm understanding here, you don't so much want to use the Divine Intervention ability such as it is... you basically want a new story reason for the cleric to cause damage to enemies in-game without they themselves doing said damage. In that regard... then sure, a "divine smiting" as it were, could certainly be a story-explanation as to why enemies are being damaged during the game-turn of the cleric, without the cleric themself causing said damage. That seems fine to me. Narratively speaking, the cleric stands in the midst of battle unarmed and taking no actions to harm any creatures, but their god has sent... whatever story-based item/creature/energy you choose-- to attack those enemies that would do the cleric and their allies harm. That could be a "spiritual weapon" of the god (not a mechanical casting of said spell per se, but more of an "always on" version of the spell which is merely a representation of the attacks the cleric would have been doing themself had they had a weapon in hand). Or it could be a pair of cherubim that fly around the enemies causing damage so that the cleric doesn't have to. Or it could just be energy of the god itself that causes damage (again, doing the equivalent of what the cleric would be doing themself were they to cast a spell or wield a weapon).

If this is your reason for "re-fluffing" your attacks, then go for it. There's no reason why you couldn't do so. The only thing you'd have to work out with your DM is that anything that would happen to the cleric as though they were actually in the combat must still be allowed to happen even if they aren't holding weapons or casting spells and such. So in other words, if "Sacred Flames" or "Guiding Bolts" are hitting enemies but are being re-fluffed as cherubim doing it (and causing the same amount of damage and receiving the same bonuses as if those spells were being cast)... these cherubim attacks can also be Counterspelled (for example) and you as the cleric player can't argue "Well, no, it's not a spell, it's the cherubim! Counterspell shouldn't work on me!" In other words, you can't use your re-fluffing to get out of the return actions that you'd ordinarily receiving were you to be actually acting normally.

Concentration spells are still being concentrated on by you even if in your re-fluffing the cleric didn't "cast" the spells that are causing the damage (and thus said concentration can be broken.) The cleric can still be disarmed by a BattleMaster maneuver, even if the cleric isn't "holding the weapon" as per the re-fluffing. So on and so forth. The only thing your cleric gains is the narrative story-telling aspect of being a pacifist... but all the other parts of combat (both positive and negative) are accomplished and actioned the same way as if you weren't.

At least, that's what I'd be ruling if I were the DM and this is what the cleric player wanted to see done.

 

[ro]

Thanks for your insight! You have added a lot to me thought process.

In other words, you can't use your re-fluffing to get out of the return actions that you'd ordinarily receiving were you to be actually acting normally.

I had not considered this consequence, but what you are saying makes perfect sense. I suppose that I figured divine intervention would still be limited to once per day, and that it could be things other than damaging spells. I see how there could still be problems though. I'll have to think some more. Thanks!

 

[Kobold Stew]

This question came from a thought experiment on making a completely pacifist cleric who would refuse to do damage. The only damage that could be dealt through the character would be through Divine Intervention: the cleric asks for aid, and the god decides to intervene by damaging the enemy. Control and healing spells would be the primary activity of the cleric, and divine intervention would not *have* to cause damage, but could.

At this point, though, you could make every damage-causing spell subject to the god's wishes, not the player's.

The verbal component for Sacred Flame becomes "It is not my will to injure this hobgoblin, but if it happens to be yours...."

 

[ro]

At this point, though, you could make every damage-causing spell subject to the god's wishes, not the player's.

The verbal component for Sacred Flame becomes "It is not my will to injure this hobgoblin, but if it happens to be yours...."

The cleric player would have no damaging spells, and would not request a specific spell but a desired outcome. The DM would choose what spell or spell-like effect to implement as in the RAW Divine Intervention. It would be a matter of DM storytelling, which would line up with the cleric's request only as far as the deity saw fit.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Yes, I understand. I was making a point about re-fluffing.