-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
D&D 5E (Houserule) Adding Int to Initiative for All Classes
- Thread starter Stalker0
- Start date
INT being least important stat: An Analysis.
There are three types of rolls using the attributes - attacks, skill checks, and saves. For the sake of simplicity, I'm including forcing an enemy save as a kind of attack. I'm going to look at each of those three kinds of rolls to see how and why INT is underutilized.
Attacks
There are three STR based classes (fighter, barbarian, paladin, some gishes)
There are four DEX based classes (fighter, rogue, monk, ranger, some gishes)
There are four CHA based classes (paladin, bard, sorcerer, warlock)
There are four WIS based classes (cleric, druid, ranger, monk)
There is one INT based class (wizard), along with some potential with rogues.
This is the fundamental problem with INT being underutilized. Only the wizard really cares, and some Rogues care, depending if your GM is generous with using PC based poisons.
Save analysis:
Someone else did a giant analysis elsewhere. I can't find the link, and I'm not going to reproduce the counts, but in a nutshell, these were basically the results.
Skills
So, what do we roll for skills?
STR has only one skill, and boy, is it a doozy. Athletics is pretty much any kind of roll you'd like to make with a body, save balance checks. Jump, climb, swim.. its all there. Plus, you get to resist shoves and grapples here.
DEX has a few skills - acrobatics, stealth, sleight of hand, and lockpicking. Acrobatics are a poor-woman's Athletics, mainly used for the resisting grapples and shoves; its basically a skill tax to replace a STR/DEX save. Sleight of hand is only used by people that want to make a point of picking pockets with their character - an unnecessary skill. Stealth is godly, and lockpicking tools for disarming traps is likewise an awesome tool to have.
CON has no skills
WIS has several skills, of various value. Animal Handling is generally used in place of "speak animal" (which is a function of INT anyways) and there's even a spell for it if you need to know the language; also used to social-fu animals or control a mount, which should be CHA, especially because paladins. Medicine is... lackluster with the healing kit around. Survival is used to, well, survive in games like the most recent Tomb path (rangers auto-succeed here). Insight and Perception are godly skills, though like Acrobatics/Athletics, they're used to resist what others do, effectively being a kind of Save.
CHA has four skills - perform (worthless), deception, persuasion, intimidate. For the most part, you only need one of persuasion/intimidate as a "convince people" skill, and deception when you need to lie. You can also roll flat CHA for picking up trivia and rumors around town, the old Bardic Lore trick.
INT has five skills, but don't let them fool you; only Arcana is really of any value. History is basically a poor man's Identify spell, and can be decieved by fakes/cursed objects, while the spell won't be. Nature is a bookish Survival. Religion wishes it could identify things like Arcana. Investigation is often passed over in favor of Perception. Now, don't get me wrong - Arcana is a necessary skill for many adventurer parties, and is the swiss army knife of INT skills. But its still just one skill.
INT also applies to several kits - disguises, crafts, forgeries, games. All in all, this is actually an area where INT is actually showing a bit of use, though mainly for the rogue, and through Tools instead of listed skills; there's a lot of deception-based techniques here that rely on INT. If you have a rogue that's using these kind of skills for any reason, INT is a key skill. If you have a rogue-type relying on poisons or making impromptu traps, INT is a key skill. Crafting and games are generally meaningless via core rules, though.
Lastly, INT is used to language creatures without sharing an actual language. Good for understanding wizard familiars too, or for infiltrating an orcish/goblin hoard and trying to figure out their plans.
So, after looking at everything, the main problem comes down to two things, as far as I can tell. One, only the wizard types and rogues types really want INT. Two, saves are terrible. If you want to make INT something less of a dump stat, I guess the option is to look into what's lacking and bump it up a bit. So we have one and half-classes that like INT for the skills/tools. Put a focus on those things. Maybe take a look at another class, see if maybe you want to make Fighter maneuvers to be INT based instead of STR/DEX based, or make some metamagics rely on INT, or something.
And forget what's in the MM, start making some calls to have INT and CHA saves instead of everything being WIS. WIS is basically only good at resisting things; its the CON of mental stats, but you use skills and saves instead of hp. Even Insight and Perception tend to be used to resist someone/thing hiding or someone manipulating you. Its got lots of resisty stuff already, so tweaking around what saves come up can't hurt. Set a guideline - CHA to resist something like Hold Person type effects and fight off fear; use mental strength to push back, WIS to notice stuff like illusions, and INT to .. I don't know. Maybe to avoid forgetting something? Make INT saves for common sense checks or if a player remembers something that happened in the past?
There are three types of rolls using the attributes - attacks, skill checks, and saves. For the sake of simplicity, I'm including forcing an enemy save as a kind of attack. I'm going to look at each of those three kinds of rolls to see how and why INT is underutilized.
Attacks
There are three STR based classes (fighter, barbarian, paladin, some gishes)
There are four DEX based classes (fighter, rogue, monk, ranger, some gishes)
There are four CHA based classes (paladin, bard, sorcerer, warlock)
There are four WIS based classes (cleric, druid, ranger, monk)
There is one INT based class (wizard), along with some potential with rogues.
This is the fundamental problem with INT being underutilized. Only the wizard really cares, and some Rogues care, depending if your GM is generous with using PC based poisons.
Save analysis:
Someone else did a giant analysis elsewhere. I can't find the link, and I'm not going to reproduce the counts, but in a nutshell, these were basically the results.
- STR saving throws are tied with DEX saving throws. Most STR saves come after being hit by an attack. The majority of DEX saves were overwhelmingly the result of fighting dragons; that includes spellcasters in the Monster Manual.
- I don't remember the results of CON saves, but they remained highly relevant
- WIS tended to be used to resist almost anything related to mental influence
- CHA was used to resist banishment and direct possession.
- INT versus mind flayers. And some other psychic types, but mostly mind flayers.
Skills
So, what do we roll for skills?
STR has only one skill, and boy, is it a doozy. Athletics is pretty much any kind of roll you'd like to make with a body, save balance checks. Jump, climb, swim.. its all there. Plus, you get to resist shoves and grapples here.
DEX has a few skills - acrobatics, stealth, sleight of hand, and lockpicking. Acrobatics are a poor-woman's Athletics, mainly used for the resisting grapples and shoves; its basically a skill tax to replace a STR/DEX save. Sleight of hand is only used by people that want to make a point of picking pockets with their character - an unnecessary skill. Stealth is godly, and lockpicking tools for disarming traps is likewise an awesome tool to have.
CON has no skills
WIS has several skills, of various value. Animal Handling is generally used in place of "speak animal" (which is a function of INT anyways) and there's even a spell for it if you need to know the language; also used to social-fu animals or control a mount, which should be CHA, especially because paladins. Medicine is... lackluster with the healing kit around. Survival is used to, well, survive in games like the most recent Tomb path (rangers auto-succeed here). Insight and Perception are godly skills, though like Acrobatics/Athletics, they're used to resist what others do, effectively being a kind of Save.
CHA has four skills - perform (worthless), deception, persuasion, intimidate. For the most part, you only need one of persuasion/intimidate as a "convince people" skill, and deception when you need to lie. You can also roll flat CHA for picking up trivia and rumors around town, the old Bardic Lore trick.
INT has five skills, but don't let them fool you; only Arcana is really of any value. History is basically a poor man's Identify spell, and can be decieved by fakes/cursed objects, while the spell won't be. Nature is a bookish Survival. Religion wishes it could identify things like Arcana. Investigation is often passed over in favor of Perception. Now, don't get me wrong - Arcana is a necessary skill for many adventurer parties, and is the swiss army knife of INT skills. But its still just one skill.
INT also applies to several kits - disguises, crafts, forgeries, games. All in all, this is actually an area where INT is actually showing a bit of use, though mainly for the rogue, and through Tools instead of listed skills; there's a lot of deception-based techniques here that rely on INT. If you have a rogue that's using these kind of skills for any reason, INT is a key skill. If you have a rogue-type relying on poisons or making impromptu traps, INT is a key skill. Crafting and games are generally meaningless via core rules, though.
Lastly, INT is used to language creatures without sharing an actual language. Good for understanding wizard familiars too, or for infiltrating an orcish/goblin hoard and trying to figure out their plans.
So, after looking at everything, the main problem comes down to two things, as far as I can tell. One, only the wizard types and rogues types really want INT. Two, saves are terrible. If you want to make INT something less of a dump stat, I guess the option is to look into what's lacking and bump it up a bit. So we have one and half-classes that like INT for the skills/tools. Put a focus on those things. Maybe take a look at another class, see if maybe you want to make Fighter maneuvers to be INT based instead of STR/DEX based, or make some metamagics rely on INT, or something.
And forget what's in the MM, start making some calls to have INT and CHA saves instead of everything being WIS. WIS is basically only good at resisting things; its the CON of mental stats, but you use skills and saves instead of hp. Even Insight and Perception tend to be used to resist someone/thing hiding or someone manipulating you. Its got lots of resisty stuff already, so tweaking around what saves come up can't hurt. Set a guideline - CHA to resist something like Hold Person type effects and fight off fear; use mental strength to push back, WIS to notice stuff like illusions, and INT to .. I don't know. Maybe to avoid forgetting something? Make INT saves for common sense checks or if a player remembers something that happened in the past?
Flexor the Mighty!
18/100 Strength!
Hackmaster 5e uses Int for this and I like it, a good rule I think.
Slit518
Adventurer
All of this, because Stephen Hawkins will always go first!
Edit:
Another thought on how to make Intelligence a bit more useful.
Perhaps 1/2 stat modifier added to skills you're proficient in?
It's not enough to be buff and climb a rocky wall, but also the know how.
You can hide because you're limber and can fold up, but knowing where to hide and how to spot it can be used for intelligence.
Playing a flute because you have innate talent, but having the knowledge of what notes sound good together as well as what the crowd around you might actually enjoy. If they're a Death Metal crowd, you're not going to play Country or Hip Hop, and likewise.
Edit:
Another thought on how to make Intelligence a bit more useful.
Perhaps 1/2 stat modifier added to skills you're proficient in?
It's not enough to be buff and climb a rocky wall, but also the know how.
You can hide because you're limber and can fold up, but knowing where to hide and how to spot it can be used for intelligence.
Playing a flute because you have innate talent, but having the knowledge of what notes sound good together as well as what the crowd around you might actually enjoy. If they're a Death Metal crowd, you're not going to play Country or Hip Hop, and likewise.
Last edited:
I think the thread is getting a bit off topic.
I agree that my change alone is not going to fix the problem. I will likely look st class specific changes as well.
However I wanted to start the ball with a change that was strong but didn't disrupt the game, and thst most characters would look at and say (yeah I'd put in a little more int for that).
I don't think fighters would suddenly have 16 ints because of this...but maybe fewer 8s or even a 12.
So I think there is plenty of room to discuss further int adjustments in other threads. The main topic here is whether an int adjustment to initiative is a good starting point
I agree that my change alone is not going to fix the problem. I will likely look st class specific changes as well.
However I wanted to start the ball with a change that was strong but didn't disrupt the game, and thst most characters would look at and say (yeah I'd put in a little more int for that).
I don't think fighters would suddenly have 16 ints because of this...but maybe fewer 8s or even a 12.
So I think there is plenty of room to discuss further int adjustments in other threads. The main topic here is whether an int adjustment to initiative is a good starting point
Ganymede81
First Post
I'll reiterate what everyone else is suggesting: just replace Dex with Int for Initiative checks.
snickersnax
Explorer
Now beasts are bad at perception too? or maybe all beasts really are as smart or smarter than humans?
I'm not suggesting it. I think its a bad idea. Did the smart kids in your high school react faster than the quick kids in any game you played during gym class? I mean sure they were faster at Quiz Bowl, but combat doesn't usually involve searching your memory for information and then attacking the buzzer. At any high level combat if you think about anything, you've already lost.
I'm all for a balanced game, but I prefer consistency and some reference to realism because I have a sensitive immersion
Satyrn
First Post
I'm sure there's a cream for that.I have a sensitive immersion
Or a cream ale at least.
