D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

[Cap'n Kobold]

You and several (or many?) others are making a very big assumption here that may or may not be correct: that magic is always going to be geared toward combat.

Being able to buy magic weapons has been explicitly mentioned as one of the things requested, and even where weapons weren't called out specifically, yours is the first post to make the distinction between combat and non-combat items.
Its not really a big assumption.

Now, I'm probably one of the people who would be more likely to spend their character's money on versatility rather than higher numbers in combat. But there often is not a good dividing line between a 'combat item' and a 'non-combat' one.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Obviously people are still enjoy it. If you don't like it, don't come here. Hoping it will be locked is petty and childish.

I would agree with you wholeheartedly if anything of merit was being added that hadn't been said in some way, shape or form in the last 10 or so pages.

 

[Krachek]

You and several (or many?) others are making a very big assumption here that may or may not be correct: that magic is always going to be geared toward combat.

A Folding Boat isn't going to win me any fights but it's sure cool to have...and it'd be fun to know how much it'd cost to commission an artificer to build me one.

A sword that works as a compass so I always know which way north is, or that has a Create Food and Water ability once a day - yeah, no combat benefits there but I'll take 'em if they're going.

A Bag of Holding? Most useful item in the game, but only when I'm looting the bodies after the fighting's done. If you've got one to sell, what's it gonna cost me?

And so on...

It is exactly my point.
How you evaluate the precise value of a bag of holding, vs flaming sword vs hat of disguise?
You made blind guess, using experience, feeling and general assumption.
To fake you made extensive tests you gave silly value
1289 gold for the bag,
877 for the hat
6999 for the flaming sword.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

There is a small highlight in the XgtE that tell that monster and pc are built to face each other without magic items.
I understand from it that monster stat and xp budget tables are designed assuming the absence of magic item.

Here's something I don't understand. Well, one more thing.
If monsters and PCs are built to fight eachother without magic items, and that magic items will throw the design balance.... Why are the DMG using a hundred pages on magic items, that per design must be optional? It makes no sense. I can see feats being optional, but magic items takes up many pages. Why, if they the screw the design assumptions. And why are they included in every single adventure, including Lost Mines of Phandelver (where the distribution is very generous) that's supposed to be a starter.

Why use table upon table for something that will unbalance the game?
And why the treasure tables when there are only vague downtime things to spend gold on?

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

But, that's the thing. Does it stop there? Having a utility based price list affects virtually every aspect of the game. PC's get a lot more powerful under this system. Which means that every module needs to be reworked, every new monster, XP awards, etc.

But they get more powerful with magic items anyway, pricelist or not, don't they? The logic conclusion to your argument is that magic items should be banned. Using them will force a rewrite of the entire game and start a slope towards uncontrollable power creep.

Can you please help me understand how pricelists will ruin the game, but distributing the very same items as treasure won't?

 

[Hussar]

But they get more powerful with magic items anyway, pricelist or not, don't they? The logic conclusion to your argument is that magic items should be banned. Using them will force a rewrite of the entire game and start a slope towards uncontrollable power creep.

Can you please help me understand how pricelists will ruin the game, but distributing the very same items as treasure won't?

Why are they getting the items anyway? Even the random treasure generation is no guarantee (and very likely will result in only common items) that more powerful items will be found.

Even the modules don't really ramp up magic items. As I mentioned before, 8 levels in Ravenloft and nary a magic bow or even a magic arrow in the module. Playing modules in our new campaign has resulted in a couple of +1 weapons and a few odds and sods, but, again, very few magic items.

It's not like AD&D where you were getting 2-4 magic items after about 1-8 "lairs" and you were looting dozens of lairs per level. AD&D was based on the idea that you'd have buckets and buckets of magic items (don't believe me, then explain why the paladin's 10 item limit was actually considered a big deal).

There's nothing wrong with using magic items. But magic items are what they are in 5e - a power up. Having a magic item makes you actually more powerful. And DM's need to be aware of that. Having a magic item in 3e was a requirement - if you didn't, you actually couldn't deal with challenges as you leveled up because those bonuses were figured into the monsters. Having a +1 sword in 5e means that you are actually flat out better than baseline.

I like that magic is actually a reward in the new system.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

If
Can we agree on this so far?

No.

So, again, do you really think that adding a system that necessitates a complete rewrite of the entire game on the DM's side from the ground up is a reasonable request?

You keep saying the entire game must be rewritten. You base it on some logic where the way that PCs acquire the very same magic have profound influence on the entire game as is and any future supplements.
To say the least, I disagree. Actually, I've seen no one in this thread support that argument.

 

[Krachek]

Here's something I don't understand. Well, one more thing.
If monsters and PCs are built to fight eachother without magic items, and that magic items will throw the design balance.... Why are the DMG using a hundred pages on magic items, that per design must be optional? It makes no sense. I can see feats being optional, but magic items takes up many pages. Why, if they the screw the design assumptions. And why are they included in every single adventure, including Lost Mines of Phandelver (where the distribution is very generous) that's supposed to be a starter.

Why use table upon table for something that will unbalance the game?
And why the treasure tables when there are only vague downtime things to spend gold on?

Magic items are important for the game.
Rewards are important for the game.
But to evaluate and give value to each item vs combat usage is a fool task.

Dnd is not a war game we’re you spend points on troops and equipment trying to beat an opponent in pvp.
You can’t give a precise value on all item that will be used in different aspect of the game.
What is the precise price difference of a bag of holding vs a +1 sword?
Items have been assigned rarity, and thus price, using experience, common assumption and blind guess.
The Dm guide tells that you can give as much or as less item as you want.
Items distribution on table or in adventure are only one of the choice.

Precise price of items is a dream or an illusion. You can think it is meaningful but it is not.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Magic items are important for the game.
Rewards are important for the game.
But to evaluate and give value to each item vs combat usage is a fool task.

Dnd is not a war game we’re you spend points on troops and equipment trying to beat an opponent in pvp.
You can’t give a precise value on all item that will be used in different aspect of the game.
What is the precise price difference of a bag of holding vs a +1 sword?
Items have been assigned rarity, and thus price, using experience, common assumption and blind guess.
The Dm guide tells that you can give as much or as less item as you want.
Items distribution on table or in adventure are only one of the choice.

Precise price of items is a dream or an illusion. You can think it is meaningful but it is not.

That didn't answer my question at all. If magic items will unbalance the design of the game, why is the DMG and adventures filled with them?

 

[Krachek]

That didn't answer my question at all. If magic items will unbalance the design of the game, why is the DMG and adventures filled with them?

Because players like to receive rewards and use magic item.
The first two lines of my previous answer.

They admit that magic item improve the players characters.
Pc with items will succeed more easily against monster.
They just don’t figure out how much.

The whole combat system is roughly balanced.
CR, xp budget, encounter per day, is a wonky system set to easy mode.
When you add feat, MC and magic items the system simply burst out.

Dnd is not a war game or a card game where you can spend hours evaluating all your options.
The difference between a +1,+2, ,+3 weapon is based on common assumption and blind guess.
You can see the improvement, you can give guide line about at what level you should use the item,
But give a price based on a all integrated environment is a fool task.