5e Character Guides - why rate all features?

[André Soares]

It's totally fine to make suboptimal choices, that is fun and all, but why would you need a guide for that?

And as a Wizard, that wants to cast spells as a main option, MCing to rogue is an suboptimal choice.

 

[André Soares]

The biggest problem is that more than a few guides rate some abilities totally wrong. Some are honest when they tell you that something is entirely campaign dependend. Some ratings assume too much white box optimizing.

well this is a problem with the qualitty of the guide, and the knowledge of the person writing it, not as much "color grading being wrong".

 

[UngeheuerLich]

well this is a problem with the qualitty of the guide, and the knowledge of the person writing it, not as much "color grading being wrong".

Yes it is. Great weapon master is always rated gold instead of purple (situational).
It is a lack of understanding how expected value and standard deviation work together... especially when the number of attacks per combat are low.

 

[Mort]

Why do 5e Character guides try to rate all the features a class gets instead of just rating the ones that a player gets a choice about?

I can think of 2 reasons I haven't yet seen discussed (though it's a longish thread, could have easily missed something).

1. It can help with the flow of the guide to not have to shift between explanation and rating. One format makes it both easier to write and to read.

2. A better reason, at least for me: As the person who most often DMs, I like to know the relative power level/usefulness of abilities in relation to the other classes - especially by level: rating them helps.

For Example 6th level: the Paladin gets Aura of Protection one of the more game changing abilities, especially for that level. The Rogue gets more expertise, which is nice but not on the level of the paladin's ability. Rating those abilities can help me eyeball big changes, and can help the player eyeball big jumps in power too.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

I can think of 2 reasons I haven't yet seen discussed (though it's a longish thread, could have easily missed something).

1. It can help with the flow of the guide to not have to shift between explanation and rating. One format makes it both easier to write and to read.

2. A better reason, at least for me: As the person who most often DMs, I like to know the relative power level/usefulness of abilities in relation to the other classes - especially by level: rating them helps.

How do actual ratings used in guides help this, exactly? You say the ratings let you know the relative power level/usefulness of abilities in relation to other classes, but I don't think this happens in practice. Let's use your example of Aura of Protection and see what we can tell from the first two guides linked to in the sticky.

The first guide by Gladius Legis ranks it Sky Blue (2nd to best rating). This is the same as Martial Weapon Proficiency, Divine Health, Lay On Hands, Divine Smite, Spellcasting and Extra Attack (among others) in the guide, so it doesn't stand out as especially good. The same author has guides for Fighter, Ranger, and Rogue. His fighter guide ranks Martial Weapon Proficiency, Action Surge, ASI, Battlemaster, and Eldritch Knight Spellcasting as sky blue, while his rogue guide ranks Expertise, Thief's Tools, Sneak Attack, Evasion, Reliable action, and Arcane Trickster Spellcasting the same.

Are all of these abilities roughly equal in game-changingness? The ranking he gives Expertise and Martial Weapon Proficiency is exactly the same as he does for Aura of Protection, so the ratings don't actually help reach your conclusion of which one is a big change. Is Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight Spellcasting as good as Paladin spellcasting? They are all ranked the same, and all are ranked the same as Aura of Protection. Is immunity to disease really on the same tier of ability as Aura of Protection or 1/2 or 1/3 Spellcasting?

The next one by Evil Anagram is similar, although sky blue is it's top rating. It ranks Martial Weapons, Aura of Protection, Divine Smite, and Improved Dive Smite as sky blue, but ranks spell casting, divine health, and extra attack lower. Protection is standing out a little more in this list, as he's ranking fewer base abilities at the top. So lets look at some of his other guides. For the Warlock, only Pact of the Chain and "Awesome Cantrips" rank sky blue, their entire pact magic casting ability and the ability to use invocations ranks lower than Aura of Protection or Martial Weapon Proficiency. Sorcerers have both Spellcasting and Metamagic as sky blue, while Bards have Skills, Spellcasting, Bardic Inspiration, Jack of All Trades, and Magical Secrets with that rank, and fighters get ASI, Action Surge, Extra Attack, Martial weapon proficiency, and archery fighting style. Does having these abilities ranked the same convey significant information to you? Because it doesn't to me.

Note that I'm not saying any of the guides are bad, just that I don't think that their ranking of individual abilities actually conveys much useful information. And specifically, that the ranking doesn't convey the information 'this is a major game-changing ability, while this one isn't' that you think it does.

 

[Mort]

How do actual ratings used in guides help this, exactly? You say the ratings let you know the relative power level/usefulness of abilities in relation to other classes, but I don't think this happens in practice. Let's use your example of Aura of Protection and see what we can tell from the first two guides linked to in the sticky.

The first guide by Gladius Legis ranks it Sky Blue (2nd to best rating). This is the same as Martial Weapon Proficiency, Divine Health, Lay On Hands, Divine Smite, Spellcasting and Extra Attack (among others) in the guide, so it doesn't stand out as especially good. The same author has guides for Fighter, Ranger, and Rogue. His fighter guide ranks Martial Weapon Proficiency, Action Surge, ASI, Battlemaster, and Eldritch Knight Spellcasting as sky blue, while his rogue guide ranks Expertise, Thief's Tools, Sneak Attack, Evasion, Reliable action, and Arcane Trickster Spellcasting the same.

Are all of these abilities roughly equal in game-changingness? The ranking he gives Expertise and Martial Weapon Proficiency is exactly the same as he does for Aura of Protection, so the ratings don't actually help reach your conclusion of which one is a big change. Is Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight Spellcasting as good as Paladin spellcasting? They are all ranked the same, and all are ranked the same as Aura of Protection. Is immunity to disease really on the same tier of ability as Aura of Protection or 1/2 or 1/3 Spellcasting?

The next one by Evil Anagram is similar, although sky blue is it's top rating. It ranks Martial Weapons, Aura of Protection, Divine Smite, and Improved Dive Smite as sky blue, but ranks spell casting, divine health, and extra attack lower. Protection is standing out a little more in this list, as he's ranking fewer base abilities at the top. So lets look at some of his other guides. For the Warlock, only Pact of the Chain and "Awesome Cantrips" rank sky blue, their entire pact magic casting ability and the ability to use invocations ranks lower than Aura of Protection or Martial Weapon Proficiency. Sorcerers have both Spellcasting and Metamagic as sky blue, while Bards have Skills, Spellcasting, Bardic Inspiration, Jack of All Trades, and Magical Secrets with that rank, and fighters get ASI, Action Surge, Extra Attack, Martial weapon proficiency, and archery fighting style. Does having these abilities ranked the same convey significant information to you? Because it doesn't to me.

Note that I'm not saying any of the guides are bad, just that I don't think that their ranking of individual abilities actually conveys much useful information. And specifically, that the ranking doesn't convey the information 'this is a major game-changing ability, while this one isn't' that you think it does.

thanks for the in depth analysis. It's been a bit since I actually looked at the guides in detail.

I think what it shows is that looking at the various guides is not the short cut I would hope it should be.

But, ideally, there should be consistency between the ratings over the various classes so as to allow the comparison I was mentioning. The ratings should not be determined for the class at hand in a vacuum. If they are, well that's disappointing!

 

[Yunru]

How do actual ratings used in guides help this, exactly? You say the ratings let you know the relative power level/usefulness of abilities in relation to other classes, but I don't think this happens in practice. Let's use your example of Aura of Protection and see what we can tell from the first two guides linked to in the sticky.

The first guide by Gladius Legis ranks it Sky Blue (2nd to best rating). This is the same as Martial Weapon Proficiency, Divine Health, Lay On Hands, Divine Smite, Spellcasting and Extra Attack (among others) in the guide, so it doesn't stand out as especially good. The same author has guides for Fighter, Ranger, and Rogue. His fighter guide ranks Martial Weapon Proficiency, Action Surge, ASI, Battlemaster, and Eldritch Knight Spellcasting as sky blue, while his rogue guide ranks Expertise, Thief's Tools, Sneak Attack, Evasion, Reliable action, and Arcane Trickster Spellcasting the same.

Are all of these abilities roughly equal in game-changingness? The ranking he gives Expertise and Martial Weapon Proficiency is exactly the same as he does for Aura of Protection, so the ratings don't actually help reach your conclusion of which one is a big change. Is Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight Spellcasting as good as Paladin spellcasting? They are all ranked the same, and all are ranked the same as Aura of Protection. Is immunity to disease really on the same tier of ability as Aura of Protection or 1/2 or 1/3 Spellcasting?

The next one by Evil Anagram is similar, although sky blue is it's top rating. It ranks Martial Weapons, Aura of Protection, Divine Smite, and Improved Dive Smite as sky blue, but ranks spell casting, divine health, and extra attack lower. Protection is standing out a little more in this list, as he's ranking fewer base abilities at the top. So lets look at some of his other guides. For the Warlock, only Pact of the Chain and "Awesome Cantrips" rank sky blue, their entire pact magic casting ability and the ability to use invocations ranks lower than Aura of Protection or Martial Weapon Proficiency. Sorcerers have both Spellcasting and Metamagic as sky blue, while Bards have Skills, Spellcasting, Bardic Inspiration, Jack of All Trades, and Magical Secrets with that rank, and fighters get ASI, Action Surge, Extra Attack, Martial weapon proficiency, and archery fighting style. Does having these abilities ranked the same convey significant information to you? Because it doesn't to me.

Note that I'm not saying any of the guides are bad, just that I don't think that their ranking of individual abilities actually conveys much useful information. And specifically, that the ranking doesn't convey the information 'this is a major game-changing ability, while this one isn't' that you think it does.

Of that list, the only ones that aren't game changing for their respective fields are the weapon proficiencies.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

Of that list, the only ones that aren't game changing for their respective fields are the weapon proficiencies.

So from the second list Archery fighting style is game changing but the others aren't, most spell casting is but the warlock's and paladin's isn't (only 'awesome cantrips' for the warlock), Divine smite is even though the spell casting it requires isn't. From the first list, EK and AT spellcasting are just as game changing as paladin spellcasting, healing 1d10+FighterLevel per short rest isn't game changing but healing 5 points*PaladinLevel once per long rest is, and immunity to disease is game changing on the level that spellcasting or aura of protection are.

If you actually use the color ratings to determine what's 'game changing', you get some really weird answers.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

But, ideally, there should be consistency between the ratings over the various classes so as to allow the comparison I was mentioning. The ratings should not be determined for the class at hand in a vacuum. If they are, well that's disappointing!

You may want to sit down for this, there's not even consistency from section to section in a guide! In some places, the rating means "which one should you pick/prioritize," like abilities scores and skill proficiencies. In other places, it means "this is a really good ability", in others "this is an ability you should pick when you have the options," "this is the ability that should decide if you want to take the subclass", "this is an ability that I really like but it's actually a trap because the subclass it's in means it doesn't work well", or "this is a really useful ability for a specific build that the author likes". For weapon and armor proficeincies, it means "what gives you the longest list of things you're proficient with, even if they're not actually useful to you or indeed highly detrimental to you to use".

 

[Yunru]

So from the second list Archery fighting style is game changing but the others aren't, most spell casting is but the warlock's and paladin's isn't (only 'awesome cantrips' for the warlock), Divine smite is even though the spell casting it requires isn't. From the first list, EK and AT spellcasting are just as game changing as paladin spellcasting, healing 1d10+FighterLevel per short rest isn't game changing but healing 5 points*PaladinLevel once per long rest is, and immunity to disease is game changing on the level that spellcasting or aura of protection are.

If you actually use the color ratings to determine what's 'game changing', you get some really weird answers.

Oh boy, this is going to be hard on a phone.

Archery is game changing in a way that the others aren't because it helps you go beyond your maximum attack modifier, and since a miss is no damage, that's amazing.

The Warlock's spellcasting is too limited at lower levels to be of as much value as regular casters, but their cantrip lets them be on par with Fighters, especially combined with their other spells and/or features.

The Paladin has some good spells, but the majority of them come online too late. Divine Smite, by comparison, can add a tonne of damage on a Crit, and you can wait until you get a crit to use it.

EK and AT spellcasting is as useful as the Paladin's, maybe slightly weaker offensively, but that's not their primary use.

The difference between Second Wind and Lay on Hands is the Paladin can heal others. And by exactly what's needed at that.

Immunity to disease is an oddball, but is that all Divine Health does?