SunGold
First Post
I don't know why this thread is back but here's the answer, courtesy of Jeremy Crawford: you can shove before or after the Attack action.
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D&D 5E Shield Mastery Feat
- Thread starter trentonjoe
- Start date
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
2 weapon fighting specifically requires you to make an attack in addition to taking the attack action:
"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand."
That might be only to force you to use a light weapon, or to determine which is the 'other' hand, but it's clearly a different case, because shield master just says "When you use the attack action on your turn".
Incidentally the combat chapter also includes the titbit: "For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack."
Which suggests that you can take the attack action, draw a weapon before making an attack, then make the attack. That would mean that the attack action is not something that happens because you made an attack: you can do other things between taking the action and making an attack.
That was from 2015. This thread started because he then "clarified" (read: changed) his ruling with the following a couple days ago:
"Clarification about bonus actions: if a feature says you can do X as a bonus action if you do Y, you must do Y before you can do X. For Shield Master, that means the bonus action must come after the Attack action. You decide when it happens afterward that turn."
While I think the original ruling was ridiculous and the new ruling is the only sane way to adjudicate such things, changing rulings back and forth like this is not the sort of thing you want to see from a "rules guru." At the very least, it should be called out in the Sage Advice compendium that the ruling has been changed.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
I guess that will happen next time...
... and I think we are still overreacting... he changed his opininion twice in 3 years of interpreting the rules... that is actually as consistent as you could wish for...
... and I think we are still overreacting... he changed his opininion twice in 3 years of interpreting the rules... that is actually as consistent as you could wish for...
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
Actually, I think you're thinking of this thread. The thread we're posting in now was started in 2014 to ask about the the timing of the feat's bonus action, and was then necro'd yesterday, I presume in response to Jeremy Crawford's new tweet clarifying his position on the timing of bonus actions with regard to this particular feat. Ironically, @Eric Edge posted Crawford's original tweet from 2015 to which he responded two days ago because it was in contradiction to another ruling he made last year about the timing of bonus actions. That ruling, which was the real change, not this tweet from two days ago, is recorded in the Sage Advice Compendium, and specifically addresses bonus action timing in terms of the Eldritch Knight's War Magic feature, which is maybe why some people, including myself, seem to have missed it. Here's the text of that ruling:
Does the “when” in the Eldritch Knight’s War Magic feature
mean the bonus attack comes after you cast the cantrip,
or can it come before? The bonus action comes after
the cantrip, since using your action to cast a cantrip is what
gives you the ability to make the weapon attack as a bonus
action. That said, a DM would break nothing in the system
by allowing an Eldritch Knight to reverse the order of the
cantrip and the weapon attack.
mean the bonus attack comes after you cast the cantrip,
or can it come before? The bonus action comes after
the cantrip, since using your action to cast a cantrip is what
gives you the ability to make the weapon attack as a bonus
action. That said, a DM would break nothing in the system
by allowing an Eldritch Knight to reverse the order of the
cantrip and the weapon attack.
I'm going to keep doing it as I have been, which is to allow players to choose the timing of a bonus action on their turn, which, as Crawford says here, won't break the game.
Sean Culligan
Explorer
If you choose to shove a creature as part of one of your attack actions and also choose to shove using the Shieldmaster feat which comes first... the bonus shove or the shove attack? Answer - "It doesn't matter..."
Here are all of the relevant rule breakdowns and I don't care how old this thread is because this hadn't been done fully yet.
ShieldMaster Feat:
You use shields not just for protection but also for
offense. You gain the following benefits while you are
wielding a shield:
• If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use
a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet
of you with your shield.
PHB189 Bonus Actions: "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified."
PHB192 Actions in Combat: "The most common action to take in combat is the "Attack action", whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists. With this action;
"you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for rules that govern attacks."
PHB194 Making an Attack: "If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack."
PHB195 Melee Attacks - Shoving a creature: Using the attack action you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the attack option this attack replaces one of them."
Since a shove requires an attack role it can by itself initiate the "attack action" and according to these these rules it can also occur anywhere in the sequence.
Here are all of the relevant rule breakdowns and I don't care how old this thread is because this hadn't been done fully yet.
ShieldMaster Feat:
You use shields not just for protection but also for
offense. You gain the following benefits while you are
wielding a shield:
• If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use
a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet
of you with your shield.
PHB189 Bonus Actions: "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified."
PHB192 Actions in Combat: "The most common action to take in combat is the "Attack action", whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists. With this action;
"you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for rules that govern attacks."
PHB194 Making an Attack: "If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack."
PHB195 Melee Attacks - Shoving a creature: Using the attack action you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the attack option this attack replaces one of them."
Since a shove requires an attack role it can by itself initiate the "attack action" and according to these these rules it can also occur anywhere in the sequence.
Last edited:
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Why would you want two shoves?
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