D&D 5E Charm Person 5e vs Older

[jgsugden]

For those needing something with more length....

False Friend -

LEVEL 3rd
CASTING TIME 1 Action
RANGE/AREA 30 ft
COMPONENTS V, S
DURATION Permanent (see below)
SCHOOL Enchantment
ATTACK/SAVE WIS Save
DAMAGE/EFFECT Charmed

You attempt to charm a humanoid you can see within range. It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails the saving throw, it is charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions do anything harmful to it. The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance. When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you. A creature that fails the saving throw can repeat it at the end of a long rest, ending the effect on itself on a success.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you can target one additional creature for each slot level above 3rd. The creatures must be within 30 feet of each other when you target them.

 

[Coroc]

I agree, that is where " practically" comes into play.
It also varies a lot with the style of game. Much different flavor in Esper, Vampire, mystery etc.

But what you are describing seems more along the lines of suggestion rather than domination.

Well it was a named succubus, a lieutenant of Iuz with a tough DC Wis 18 charm gaze attack. The fun here was she was shapechanged into a beautiful woman. She acted as the assistant for a scarlet brotherhood ambassador for whose security the players were hired.
Plot twist is that the succubus was actually a plant by Iuz to assassinate the ambassador while he is in greyhawk and stirring up diplomatic trouble.
I told the player I selected to make a saving throw, which he botched, and then took him aside and told him that he is charmed and should act out that he is now madly in love with the succubus and does everything to protect her wellbeing.
It was almost comical he tried to organize flowers stood watch in front of her room and such, and from time to time he got another saving throw which he all did botch.
In the end his new love did even kiss him, which was fatal sending him on death saves.
He did get big extra XP and an inspiration for his exceptional RP.

 

[Hikikomori]

I don't have anything of substance to add but thank you everyone who replied. I found all the advice and viewpoints helpful as a long-time lapsed player returning to the game.

 

[Maxperson]

With charm person you could add insult to damage, back then you could basically order the charmed mob to jump the cliff. And you were always fast because you had the shortest casting time.

Charm Person could never do that. Most of the problem with that spell came from DMs not knowing how to run it. All it did in 1e was cause the creature to view the caster as a trusted friend. Period. End of story. My most trusted friends couldn't get me to jump off of a cliff or hold off a red dragon for a round or two. They'd be able to get a 10% discount at a store I owned, though.

 

[Coroc]

Charm Person could never do that. Most of the problem with that spell came from DMs not knowing how to run it. All it did in 1e was cause the creature to view the caster as a trusted friend. Period. End of story. My most trusted friends couldn't get me to jump off of a cliff or hold off a red dragon for a round or two. They'd be able to get a 10% discount at a store I owned, though.

You could not order a foe directly to jump off the cliff, true that, you could definitely order it to do everything which would not cause them direct harm. And even if it would cause harm e.g. defend their "trusted friend" from an attacker they would do that. They would definitely take a step backward (down the cliff) e.g. to make room for you if you trick them to do so.
I think the spell description said something like anything not outright suicidal the charmed person would do. It certainly was not intended just to get the 10% discount at the store, not that it would not work for that one also but that's what the Friends - spell (raise your Cha to 18 for a short time) was for.
Btw talking 2e , dunno if 1e was different.

 

[Coroc]

Btw using charm person would have been noticed by the shopkeeper and considered equivalent of a magic attack so you would better not return to that shop, therefore the friends spell.

 

[CapnZapp]

As an aside you basically don't need magic at all to enthrall lower-leveled citizens in Pathfinder 2.

The Diplomacy score of a charismatic NPC is already at level 5 so astronomically higher than a low-level player character's Will DC, that even if you "take 10" you still achieve a critical success.

So it's basically only the "rules to influence NPCs doesn't work on player characters" clause that saves them.

I guess nothing saves a village of NPCs from the wiles of a level 5 Bard player character, though.

 

[Coroc]

As an aside you basically don't need magic at all to enthrall lower-leveled citizens in Pathfinder 2.

The Diplomacy score of a charismatic NPC is already at level 5 so astronomically higher than a low-level player character's Will DC, that even if you "take 10" you still achieve a critical success.

So it's basically only the "rules to influence NPCs doesn't work on player characters" clause that saves them.

I guess nothing saves a village of NPCs from the wiles of a level 5 Bard player character, though.

So basically, after the heroes slay the villainous bard and ask around wether what he did to the populace:
"Did the evil overlord suck your blood and threaten to turn you into undead? Did he rape your women and pillage your belongings?"

"No"

"What did he do then?"

"He sang this evergreen, and I could not get the melody out of my head anymore..."

 

[CapnZapp]

That was not really a complaint, by the way.

Just that my years of playing 5E had made me forget the shenanigans you get in a "add level to proficiency" system...

But yeah, basically just so. At fifth level you can apparently sport something like +13 to Diplomacy or Performance, without magic spells or items. Consider the ability to take 10 and you automatically crit any level 1 creature trained in Will saves with a Wisdom of 10. The Will save bonus is +3, the Will DC is 13, and thus, a result of 23 or higher is a critical success.

Since this basically lets you turn hostiles into neutrals* it doesn't feel like a stretch to assume you can woo any random lady off her socks, right off the streets, without even trying...

*I mean, sometimes you're just not up for burninating the countryside, and just want to be friendly instead...

 

[Maxperson]

You could not order a foe directly to jump off the cliff, true that, you could definitely order it to do everything which would not cause them direct harm. And even if it would cause harm e.g. defend their "trusted friend" from an attacker they would do that. They would definitely take a step backward (down the cliff) e.g. to make room for you if you trick them to do so.

Eh, no. The caster only became a trusted friend. You could order them to give you their home for free, and they would say no. Just like I would say no to a trusted friend who asked me to give my house to them. Charm has never been the god spell people misuse it as. This is the 1e language.

"Explanation/Description: This spell will affect any single person or mammal it is cast upon. The creature then will regard the druid who cast the spell as a trusted friend and ally to be heeded and protected. The spell does not enable the druid to control the charmed creature as if it were an automaton, but any word or action of the druid will be viewed in its most favorable way."

So you regard it as a trusted friend or ally to be heeded or protected, just like I view my best buddies. It does not enable control of the creature, so you cannot order it to do anything that isn't suicidal. Well, you can, but you will be ignored if you order it to do anything that you or I wouldn't do for our best friends. The charmed creatures has to view the request in its most favorable way. That does no say that it has to be favorable, only that it views in in the MOST favorable way. Well, the most favorable way I would view my best friend asking for my house or even my new living room furniture would be to say no.

It certainly was not intended just to get the 10% discount at the store, not that it would not work for that one also but that's what the Friends - spell (raise your Cha to 18 for a short time) was for.
Btw talking 2e , dunno if 1e was different.

1e was intended to make the person view things in its most favorable way in the context of "best friend" making the request. Period.

Here is the 2e language. It's virtually identical to 1e, so yes, 2e also had no intention to make it a god spell like people misused it as.

"If the spell recipient fails his saving throw, he regards the caster as a trusted friend and ally to be heeded and protected. The spell does not enable the caster to control the charmed creature as if it were a automaton, but any word or action of the caster is viewed in the most favorable way."

The only change is "its" to "the" in the last sentence. Even so, THE most favorable way I would view my best friend asking for my house or even my new living room furniture would be to say no.