D&D 5E Vengeance Paladin alignment

[PsyzhranV2]

You seem to suggest that the target of the vengeance paladin is ordinary.

Mobsters and Thieves' Guilds are examples you give.

While that obviously isn't against the rules, I don't think it is the assumption/intent. The tenants are about fighting the greater evil. Swearing vengeance against the school bully isn't really what we're talking about here.

It's more about ignoring the thieves' guild in order to concentrate on the archdevils. Yes, the thieves' guild is probably doing some wrong and a devotion paladin would be more likely to try to stop them from stealing from the townsfolk. A vengeance paladin doesn't care about such small grievances.

Yes, we could try to save that village from the gnolls, but if we do that we may allow the archdevils to corrupt the entire realm. That's the sort of thing we're talking about here.

The vengeance is for the greater good, not out of selfishness or the joy of slaughter.

Just going off of the examples the PHB gave.

The Oath of Vengeance is a solemn commitment to punish those who have committed a grievous sin. When evil forces slaughter helpless villagers, when an entire people turns against the will of the gods, when a thieves’ guild grows too violent and powerful, when a dragon rampages through the countryside — at times like these, paladins arise and swear an Oath of Vengeance to set right that which has gone wrong. To these paladins — sometimes called avengers or dark knights — their own purity is not as important as delivering justice.

The first is really ambiguous, and the second is a big deal, but the latter two are small potatoes in comparison, yet still listed as cause for Avengers to reveal themselves.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Which I am contending that isn't meant to be the default flavour of the class. Or does "in a moment of desperation and grief with the dead as the only witness" mean nothing?

Where is that quote from. I just reread the PHB entry for the class, and it isn’t there.

What I describe is literally exactly what the phb writeup describes.

The Vengeance Paladin is an instrument of the gods will, to mete our justice against great evils. That is the actual lore of the archetype.

You seem to suggest that the target of the vengeance paladin is ordinary.

Mobsters and Thieves' Guilds are examples you give.

While that obviously isn't against the rules, I don't think it is the assumption/intent. The tenants are about fighting the greater evil. Swearing vengeance against the school bully isn't really what we're talking about here.

It's more about ignoring the thieves' guild in order to concentrate on the archdevils. Yes, the thieves' guild is probably doing some wrong and a devotion paladin would be more likely to try to stop them from stealing from the townsfolk. A vengeance paladin doesn't care about such small grievances.

Yes, we could try to save that village from the gnolls, but if we do that we may allow the archdevils to corrupt the entire realm. That's the sort of thing we're talking about here.

The vengeance is for the greater good, not out of selfishness or the joy of slaughter.

Exactly. The archetype never mentions personal vendettas, or wandering around killing anyone who wrongs you like an even more evil The Punisher.

It is about avenging terrible wrongs writ large, and making the world safer by exterminating actual great evils.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Where is that quote from. I just reread the PHB entry for the class, and it isn’t there.

What I describe is literally exactly what the phb writeup describes.

The Vengeance Paladin is an instrument of the gods will, to mete our justice against great evils. That is the actual lore of the archetype.


Exactly. The archetype never mentions personal vendettas, or wandering around killing anyone who wrongs you like an even more evil The Punisher.

It is about avenging terrible wrongs writ large, and making the world safer by exterminating actual great evils.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

View attachment 114429
View attachment 114430

So...it is in the general description of the Paladin. Okay? What does the second bit even indicate, to you?

Nothing in the Paladin writeup supports what you are arguing. It is a reflavoring of the class.

Even a Paladin that take an oath in response to trauma isn’t a Warlock. They aren’t assumed by the game’s lore to betaking the oath of selfish reasons. They’re assumed to be making the Batman/Spider-Man play, and dedicating their life to keeping the same trauma from happening to others by serving a higher purpose. That is literally what the Paladin is. Someone who is wholly dedicated to serving a higher purpose.

You can play the class differently from that, but don’t pretend it’s the default.

 

[Hussar]

I always figured Vengeance Paladin's are the Batman paladins. It's the Dark Knight archetype.

But, again, I do find different people's interpretations interesting. The notion that Q from ST:TNG is LN is ... interesting to say the least.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I always figured Vengeance Paladin's are the Batman paladins. It's the Dark Knight archetype.

Absolutely! He’s motivated to undertake his crusade by his trauma, but his crusade is not a personal vendetta. He is taking on the burden of a higher purpose, because he doesn’t want others to experience what he did.

Some writers lose sight of that, and spend way too much time with him just like...beating up individual criminals, but he is exactly the vengeance Paladin, and a perfect example of why the Oath is built toward Good. The only reason it’s skews neutral instead in the writeup is that they are more willing to do bad stuff to achieve their mission.

 

[S'mon]

I can see Dirty Harry as a LG Vengeance Paladin.

 

[Charlaquin]

Can a vengeance paladin be of a Good alignment instead of Lawful Neutral?

Here’s how 5e defines the three Good alignments:

Lawful good (LG) creatures can be counted on to do the right thing as expected by society.

Neutral good (NG) folk do the best they can to help others according to their needs.

Chaotic good (CG) creatures act as their conscience directs, with little regard for what others expect.

Here are the tenets of the path of Vengeance:

Fight the Greater Evil. Faced with a choice of fighting my sworn foes or combating a lesser evil, I choose the greater evil.

No Mercy for the Wicked. Ordinary foes might win my mercy, but my sworn enemies do not.

By Any Means Necessary. My qualms can’t get in the way of exterminating my foes.

Restitution. If my foes wreak ruin on the world, it is because I failed to stop them. I must help those harmed by their misdeeds.

I don’t see anything in those tenets that would preclude behaving in accordance with any of the three Good alignments, as defined in 5e. There may occasionally be conflicts between them, for example, a Lawful Good Paladin of Vengeance may find that acting without mercy for their sworn foes may be at odds with societal expectations of what is right. A Neutral Good Paladin of Vengeance may find it difficult to balance between helping people according to their needs and fighting the greater evil. But none of these conflicts are irreconcilable in my opinion.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Can a vengeance paladin be of a Good alignment instead of Lawful Neutral?

A vengence paladin can be any alignment you like.

Although I do have some issues with chaotic characters sticking to oaths: they may swear vengeance in the heat of the moment, then change their mind later.

Having said that, the character I would most associate with a Vengeance paladin would be Inigo Montoya "You killed my father. Prepare to die." And he seems somewhat chaotic, changing sides over the course of the story.

Perhaps more interesting to role play would be a character who is pressured reluctantly into swearing an oath.

"Romeo, the hated Capulets murdered Mercutio, I want you to swear to kill every last one of them."

"Err, yes father."

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I figure the vengeance paladin is basically Solomon Kane. He chased a dude halfway across the world for killing a girl that I think he didn't even know. He is basically just hard-a$$ good.

That being said, I figure vengeance paladin can pretty easily fit into most alignments with a little refluffing (or maybe reemphasis)--an oath of justice paladin or an oath of revenge paladin if you are looking for more LG or evil.