How would you change the new Star Wars trilogy

[Celebrim]

Not to challenge your opinions (many if which I agree with), but your characterization of the OT as having great writing and plotting utterly fails the sniff test eith Ep4 -- which was entirely saved in edit. The movie originally intended before another hand was brought in to save it in edit was a mess much along the lines of the PT. Really, Lucas is a mad genius but desperately needs a minder for the details and to often say, "No, George."

I don't know that it was saved in the edit quite as much as is commonly claimed, but I do agree that Lucas needs to collaborate to make up for some of his short comings.

As much as I appreciate the sentiment of the people who want a despecialized edition that is true to the original Oscar winning movie, 'Star Wars' (A New Hope) was the one movie that was significantly improved by the special edition in most respects, and that includes better editing. After watching the special edition of 'A New Hope' in the theater, my wife said that for the first time she really understood the movie and didn't just feel like it was mostly random collection of scenes barely connected to each other. There is still not an edit of 'Star Wars' (A New Hope) that I feel best frames the movie, as a lot of what was cut is necessary character building and only survives the process because ultimately we don't view 'Star Wars' as a stand alone movie, but only itself a first act in a longer drama.

Every movie is finalized and hopefully improved "in the edit". There are always things that you discover don't work as well, scenes you realize don't add a lot, and perhaps more to the point the edit gives you the ability to decide how to tell and in what order different scenes of simultaneous action. 'Star Wars' is not unique in this. 'Star Wars' did not go from being a really bad film to a great film in the edit. The people that push that viewpoint are unsurprisingly film editors, who have a passion for their craft. While the cut did improve 'Star Wars' and reduce some unnecessary bloat, it also IMO left the actual story more disjointed than Lucas's original vision. Some of what was cut comes back in the special edition and the result is IMO a better film. It would be even a better film if the introduction to Biggs was retained, as an additional scene between Luke cleaning the droids and then returning to find that R2 has run away. That is, Luke needs to go to "Toshi Station to pick up some power converters".

Edit or not, "Star Wars" is still a masterpiece of plotting with brilliantly written individual scenes. Consider the really deft introductions we get to C3P0 and R2D2, and the deft introduction we have to Darth Vader and to some extent Leia. Very few movies invest you so quickly in characters. The handling of these character introductions are just ingenious, and comparable to say the brilliant introductions to character in "Guardians of the Galaxy" which similarly needs to muster a diverse cast of characters for an ensemble film in a hurry without killing the pace of the movie. Some of the dialogue is cornball, sure, but it's also often funny and often fits the 'farm boy' character that is Luke.

Mostly what the editing does in 'A New Hope' is improve your ability to stay emotionally invested in the story. By improving the continuity of the story arc that you are currently following, it's a little less confusing when you switch to a different one, and the role that the other story line has in relation to the first is clearer.

What I think you are doing in citing the myth that Star Wars was saved in the edit rather than just incrementally improved, is explaining yet another of the movie making myths that informed the production of the sequel trilogy. By having this myth in mind that this masterpiece was junk that was saved in the edit, it basically kept them from believing that they were making a pile of crap. Flaws in the script and the production were handwaved away as things that they'd just fix in the edit. And while there are things that can be fixed in the edit, the sort of fundamental problems that the sequel trilogy movies have are not those sort of things.

 

[Ovinomancer]

So, I can see your P.O.V. (that it didn't leave a lot of possibilities).

Actually, my point was that it left too many possibilities.

My argument is that the middle volume of a trilogy shouldn't be just opening possibilities, but to make a large change in the status quo so that it can be addressed in the third volume. That it can also open up new avenues is the gravy, not the meat. TLJ has delicious gravy -- sweet, savory gravy -- but the meat is... barely there.

This left JJ with no hook, so he made one up. He essentially has to, because while Rian was able to wander around and play with the formula, JJ had to deliver the overall promise of the trilogy, which was to get to an end.

Again, TLJ is my favorite of the sequels because it does so many interesting things, but, as the second volume of a trilogy, it doesn't do the job it should.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I don't know that it was saved in the edit quite as much as is commonly claimed, but I do agree that Lucas needs to collaborate to make up for some of his short comings.

As much as I appreciate the sentiment of the people who want a despecialized edition that is true to the original Oscar winning movie, 'Star Wars' (A New Hope) was the one movie that was significantly improved by the special edition in most respects, and that includes better editing. After watching the special edition of 'A New Hope' in the theater, my wife said that for the first time she really understood the movie and didn't just feel like it was mostly random collection of scenes barely connected to each other. There is still not an edit of 'Star Wars' (A New Hope) that I feel best frames the movie, as a lot of what was cut is necessary character building and only survives the process because ultimately we don't view 'Star Wars' as a stand alone movie, but only itself a first act in a longer drama.

Every movie is finalized and hopefully improved "in the edit". There are always things that you discover don't work as well, scenes you realize don't add a lot, and perhaps more to the point the edit gives you the ability to decide how to tell and in what order different scenes of simultaneous action. 'Star Wars' is not unique in this. 'Star Wars' did not go from being a really bad film to a great film in the edit. The people that push that viewpoint are unsurprisingly film editors, who have a passion for their craft. While the cut did improve 'Star Wars' and reduce some unnecessary bloat, it also IMO left the actual story more disjointed than Lucas's original vision. Some of what was cut comes back in the special edition and the result is IMO a better film. It would be even a better film if the introduction to Biggs was retained, as an additional scene between Luke cleaning the droids and then returning to find that R2 has run away. That is, Luke needs to go to "Toshi Station to pick up some power converters".

Edit or not, "Star Wars" is still a masterpiece of plotting with brilliantly written individual scenes. Consider the really deft introductions we get to C3P0 and R2D2, and the deft introduction we have to Darth Vader and to some extent Leia. Very few movies invest you so quickly in characters. The handling of these character introductions are just ingenious, and comparable to say the brilliant introductions to character in "Guardians of the Galaxy" which similarly needs to muster a diverse cast of characters for an ensemble film in a hurry without killing the pace of the movie. Some of the dialogue is cornball, sure, but it's also often funny and often fits the 'farm boy' character that is Luke.

Mostly what the editing does in 'A New Hope' is improve your ability to stay emotionally invested in the story. By improving the continuity of the story arc that you are currently following, it's a little less confusing when you switch to a different one, and the role that the other story line has in relation to the first is clearer.

What I think you are doing in citing the myth that Star Wars was saved in the edit rather than just incrementally improved, is explaining yet another of the movie making myths that informed the production of the sequel trilogy. By having this myth in mind that this masterpiece was junk that was saved in the edit, it basically kept them from believing that they were making a pile of crap. Flaws in the script and the production were handwaved away as things that they'd just fix in the edit. And while there are things that can be fixed in the edit, the sort of fundamental problems that the sequel trilogy movies have are not those sort of things.

Um, you're clearly not terribly familiar with the story behind Ep4 and how the saving in edit was on the original theatrical release, not some special edition change later (which I'd argue didn't improve the movie). Ep4 was a hot mess. The tight story and scene structure you reference was largely due to edits, not as filmed or imagined. The film as envisioned was a mess with political commentary. The edit gave us the tighter story (it's still not super tight and awesomesauce, no idea why you think so) and the focus on the characters that matter.

 

[Imaculata]

Just a brief comment on this- yes, I know this is going around. The "JJ Cut" will likely go down with the "Snyder Cut" in internet lore.

I hadn't heard about a JJ Cut, but I'm not surprised. The movie feels like the product of people with multiple visions.

Disney didn't mess it up; Abrams did that all on his lonesome.

In the end, Abrams is not responsible for the failure of this reboot trilogy. Abrams had to follow up a movie with a drastically different vision from The Force Awakens. Disney messed all of this up. Do you really think any director could have salvaged this mess? I mean, what do you do? You've got no villain anymore, because Rian decided to kill him off, so you have to introduce the new threat in the opening crawl. And yeah, they bring back the emperor, which is lame. But that obviously wasn't their original plan, and honestly it was going to be a mess anyway. You could have put Tarantino or Nolan at the head of this film and it still would have been a trainwreck.

Plus there are a lot of baffling scenes in Rise of Skywalker. I would honestly not be surprised if things were cut out that JJ did not want removed, and things were added that have no place being there. I do not know if a JJ cut exists (and it seems pointless to even discuss), but I got the strong impression that the studio made some changes to the film. I could be wrong of course, but that is what it seemed like to me.

But if such a cut exists, it wouldn't change the fact that the emperor is brought back. You can't undo the fact that TLJ killed Snoke. It might make some of the structure of the movie make more sense, and maybe the final battle was cut very differently. I doubt it would completely sway my opinion of the movie either way.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Imaculata]

Except that's not what JJ wanted to do. He wanted to hew to making as much fan service moments as possible, and to include as many homages to Return as he could. Basically, he wanted to pretend that the middle movie never existed, instead of building from it.

I think JJ wanted to follow up on his original vision for The Force Awakens, and close the open plotlines that TLJ ignored, while reconning things that TLJ messed up (Like Rey's parentage). That is why the Knights of Ren were brought back for example. And yes, all of these movies are crammed full of hommages (Rogue One being the worst offender). But honestly, I got the impression that JJ just wanted to make a fun movie that answered things set up by the first movie. Of course you can't do all that in just one movie.

If any director OTHER than JJ Abrams had been given the task, I think we would have seen a very different movie. But at this point, we all know exactly what we are going to get from him. A predictable re-working of the past, competently done. As I keep saying, watching JJ Abrams is like gorging on cotton candy- it tastes good at the time, it's exactly what you expect, and afterwards you feel kind of ill.

No, it would have been rubbish either way.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Ovinomancer]

So I liked your comment, even though I disagree with it, because I like the POV.

That said, it was perfectly possible to stick a different landing. A landing from TLJ. Except that's not what JJ wanted to do. He wanted to hew to making as much fan service moments as possible, and to include as many homages to Return as he could. Basically, he wanted to pretend that the middle movie never existed, instead of building from it.

If any director OTHER than JJ Abrams had been given the task, I think we would have seen a very different movie. But at this point, we all know exactly what we are going to get from him. A predictable re-working of the past, competently done. As I keep saying, watching JJ Abrams is like gorging on cotton candy- it tastes good at the time, it's exactly what you expect, and afterwards you feel kind of ill.

Well, yes, if someone else had made the movie, it would be different. That's not really arguable. However, what in TLJ hooks into the resolution of the story? Taking your questions above:

1. Rey isn't the daughter of someone special. What does that mean?
Nothing, really, as far as more story goes. This doesn't provide a hook for more story, it resolves a story unless you do something to it that retcons a part of it. Rey as nobody is cool as hell, but it's not good for much for further storytelling -- it doesn't hook.

2. How did that kid (and others) start becoming force sensitive?
I'd say that their existence is worth more, but really only if we're going to do a time skip to the point that the kids can be part of the story rather than background. And, this doesn't offer more story, just more opportunity for story sometime later. It's another open end that doesn't hook.

3. What about Finn and Rose?
A new romance angle hardly is a basis for a new episode.

4. Did Poe learn a valuable lesson from Holdo? How does that play into the next movie?
Again, neat character note like Finn and Rose, but not what you hook a new episode on.

All and all, TLJ introduces a lot of interesting character things, but leaves the story largely in the same place it found it -- fewer resources, more pluck, but no change. ESB left Han captured (clearly a good hook for the next) and fundamentally altered how Luke approached the Empire which leads to the big confrontation at the end of RotJ. Even AofC does a great job of setting up future conflicts that didn't exist at the start of the movie. TLJ doesn't do this. Rey and Ren are still in conflict, just like at the beginning, just with some more wrinkles. There's no change in the status quo anywhere that demands resolution in the last movie. JJ faced the task of having to both create the problem to be solved and solving it in one movie. While I full-throatedly agree that JJ is a bit hacky and his vision was a bit reductionist and par for his course, he wasn't left with a better option. I'd be much more prone to criticism of tRoS if he'd been left with clear, strong hooks out of TLJ and then botched it. As it is, he wasn't, so whatever he did was because he had to. That you disagree with his vision is therefore just tastes rather than a failure in filmmaking.

 

[Celebrim]

Um, you're clearly not terribly familiar with the story behind Ep4 and how the saving in edit was on the original theatrical release, not some special edition change later (which I'd argue didn't improve the movie). Ep4 was a hot mess.

Which of the edits would you like to talk about?

I mean we're talking about a cut line here or there, three or four scenes moved forward of other scenes, slight changes in the ordering of dialogue, some interspersed scenes to clarify the action, and biggest of all Luke's original character introduction is cut. With IMO the exception of cutting the Biggs introduction, because in the final cut we first meet Biggs at the end of the movie, and only then are we asked to invest in the partnership between Luke and Biggs and feel something for his eventual death, this all works well, but the edit didn't save the movie as much as it polished it.

Personally, I like to focus on the difference between the movie and the Alan Dean Foster novelization which is based on the mid-edit script treatment, but if you like we can focus on the difference between the presumed rough draft (with its place holder effects that I think are a big problem with the reaction to it) and the final draft, or really from any two points you want.