D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

[Cap'n Kobold]

My personal belief it is the spell casting system in general, and the interaction with resting. Spellcasters need to be balanced to be able to effectively contribute even w/o spells, like martial classes are balanced to function w/o magic items.

If spellcasters were balanced compared to martial classes before they start casting spells, what happens to the balance when they start actually casting spells? You'd have to basically have no spell recovery at all to get close to balanced.

Come to think of it, most casters are already balanced against a lot of martial classes even without spells. The worst of them have access to ability checks and skill proficiencies, and player creativity and role-playing. That is already as good as the Fighter for example.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Cap, this would be a good topic for another thread I think, as it is off topic for this one, and 20+ pages in is not the best place to start.

Yes a Wizard with 20 Strength and the Athletics skill can long jump 20’ and High Jump 10’ like a Fighter, but I think we all can agree the likelihood of the Wiz and Fighter having the same STR score is unlikely.

A Fighter that has used Action Surge is usually good for at least one more encounter, before the player wants to Short Rest. The lack of this ‘DailyPower’ does not hamper the Fighter if their HP total is still sufficiently full.

A 8th level full caster that is out of 4th level spells, is in my experience clamoring for a Long Rest.

 

[MoonSong]

Cap, this would be a good topic for another thread I think, as it is off topic for this one, and 20+ pages in is not the best place to start.

I agree, this deserves its own thread. Would you make the honors?

 

[Ashrym]

@Todd Roybark Wizards are in the same boat as bards, IME. They already do what they are designed to do extremely well. I see bards often get the short end or ignored in UA articles and releases when it comes to additional spells and options. I don't complain about it evev though that's one of my favorite classes because of how well implemented the class is.

Wizards are like that. The are meant to be versatile and they are, with many options, many traditions, and spell casting mechanics that focus on that versatility. That's in contrast to the warlock's intended sustainable damage / short rest arcanist and the sorcerer's nova potential arcanist. All three aporoach arcanist differently.

"The wizard stole my stuff" is inaccurate and looks like a case of greener grass on the other side of the fence. The funny part of that is players of both classes see greener grass on the other side. That demonstrates both classes have desirable mechanics, which I would consider a good sign.

The difference is sorcerers do struggle building themes. One class has an area worth revisiting and the other does not. That's why wizards don't need something just because sorcerers might have that concern addressed.

Wizards are in a good spot relative to 5e classes. What a person thinks they should have or should not have because of (insert x edition here) does not change that. They are versatile and reminiscent of the controller concept, and cover that well.

Keeping on topic, sorcerers are less versatlie and nova based while wizards are based on that broad capability and versatility. That's a legitimate reason not to merge them. The represent different aspects of arcane spell casting that if we keep comparing to 3.x needed to be separated.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Ashrym, while I have hinted at it, I will state it explicitly I don’t want to merge the classes...I want sufficient differentiation so each feels unique.

Hearing the same “too few spells” complaints for 20+ years gets wearing. Hence the quote of mine used by Moonsong.


I want a Sorcerer class not Riven from the Wizard, and not taking all the cool background options in XGE.

For the Wizard I want ribbons...1 extra skill point, some protection type effects for spell books, automatic proficiency in Calligraphy tools...minor stuff.

You have been in threads where I have proposed this, ( expanded class features in U/A for one),
you know how reflexively negatively SOME people respond when any mention of adding anything to the Wizard class occurs.

We may not be in lock step, but my sense Ashrym is we mostly have similar viewpoint vis a vis the rules and aesthetic of play.

Are the Wizard ribbons I have thrown out so overwhelming?

Is radically boosting Font of Magic, adding additional spells and the ability to use Sorc Points to cast them, while increasing Sorc Points, w/o altering the Sorc spell list and Spells Known, (3 spells known at 1st level is my house rule for Sorcs), not a worthy change to increase the thematic viability of Sorcerers?

As for Bards, the class is fine in 5e. Bardic Inspiration recovery at Short Rest is the killer app which allows the class to be very useful even if all spells are expended. Blades and Warbards, still have weapon attacks, the College of Lore suffers once spells are gone..but not as much as Wiz/Sorc.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

We really don't need three Charisma casters.

Personally I would keep the Sorcerer, slaughter the Warlock and rethink the Bard, but I suspect I'd be in the minority.

I support this message

 

[tetrasodium]

Ashrym, while I have hinted at it, I will state it explicitly I don’t want to merge the classes...I want sufficient differentiation so each feels unique.

Hearing the same “too few spells” complaints for 20+ years gets wearing. Hence the quote of mine used by Moonsong.


I want a Sorcerer class not Riven from the Wizard, and not taking all the cool background options in XGE.

For the Wizard I want ribbons...1 extra skill point, some protection type effects for spell books, automatic proficiency in Calligraphy tools...minor stuff.

You have been in threads where I have proposed this, ( expanded class features in U/A for one),
you know how reflexively negatively SOME people respond when any mention of adding anything to the Wizard class occurs.

We may not be in lock step, but my sense Ashrym is we mostly have similar viewpoint vis a vis the rules and aesthetic of play.

Are the Wizard ribbons I have thrown out so overwhelming?

Is radically boosting Font of Magic, adding additional spells and the ability to use Sorc Points to cast them, while increasing Sorc Points, w/o altering the Sorc spell list and Spells Known, (3 spells known at 1st level is my house rule for Sorcs), not a worthy change to increase the thematic viability of Sorcerers?

As for Bards, the class is fine in 5e. Bardic Inspiration recovery at Short Rest is the killer app which allows the class to be very useful even if all spells are expended. Blades and Warbards, still have weapon attacks, the College of Lore suffers once spells are gone..but not as much as Wiz/Sorc.

none of them are overwhelming, it's people applying mmo style limited raid slot forum class warfare logic to d&d... Also extremely notable is the recent class features UA that tries out effectively giving sorcerer's a big improvement on the wizard spellbook at the cost of limited shuffle to somewhat close to how most wizards shuffle spells, the fact that one of the happy fun hour things mearls suggested giving sorcerers two extra spells known , and the number of people saying wizard needs nothing admitting similar or improved sorcerer enhancements while saying wizard doesn't need anything new.

 

[Ashrym]

I support this message

4 CHA casters -- bard, sorcerer, warlock; paladin
4 WIS casters -- cleric, druid; ranger; elemental monk
4 INT casters -- wizard; artificer; arcane trickster, eldritch knight

That split is not that uneven. They need a caster stat and CHA is typical for arcane casters and monsters.

It makes sense given CHA is associated with confidence and force of personality. It's just not traditional "magic users need INT".

 

[Doug McCrae]

In 3rd edition I greatly prefer spontaneous casters to prepared casters for two reasons:

1) Rest of the players don't have to wait while spells are chosen.
2) Potentially much more flavourful because the spells known can all fit a theme.