D&D 5E Hex Shenanigans

[Krachek]

When I see some weird case like that, I would refer to the preface of the PHB:
« playing DnD is an exercice in collaborative creation. »
So the question is now: do the bag of rats trick help create a good happening satisfying for everybody?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It's not a house rule. From the PHB: "The DM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you're on a storm-tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell."

I've been DMing 5E since it was released and It's probably happened, I dunno, twice?

You can, I hope, see how your post gave the impression that simply time passing and going about your day would bring on concentration checks that would thwart concentrating on hex for it's eventual 8-hour or 24-hour duration?

I think it's a pretty murky issue and could go either way. The pro-chicken side is playing entirely within the rules, creating a flavorful theme for themselves (can you imagine having to herd chickens as you adventure and travel?), and the benefit is rather small (when you have start a day with two 4th level slots and nothing else, I would excuse you for not wanting to have to make the choice between squandering one of them on a 1st level spell or else go without an effect that is central to your entire class). The anti-chicken side sees weirdly specific mechanical interactions being used to have more resources than normal and how concentration works over long spans of time is ill-defined.

I don't even see why it's murky.

Now, to be clear, I'm referring to how the rules actually work, not the wierdness that starts with the false premise that you need to immediately move the hex or lose it. I'm talking about starting the day by having the ranger bring the rabbit it's caught in a trap to you, so you can hex it and then kill it (quickly and mercifully, one hopes), before it is cooked, so that you simply have hex ready to go throughout the day, unless you end up needing to concentrate on something else, or otherwise lose concentration.

I can't figure out what on earth bothers some folks about this? It's not remotely "munchkiny" as some have claimed, it doesn't bend any rules, much less break them, it doesn't rely on torturing the RAW into a pretzel as some things that spark these debates do, it doesn't fly in the face of RAI so far as I can tell, and it isn't remotely thematically unreasonable or weird.

So, what gives?

 

[jaelis]

I can't figure out what on earth bothers some folks about this? It's not remotely "munchkiny" as some have claimed, it doesn't bend any rules, much less break them, it doesn't rely on torturing the RAW into a pretzel as some things that spark these debates do, it doesn't fly in the face of RAI so far as I can tell, and it isn't remotely thematically unreasonable or weird.

So, what gives?

I suppose the only aspect of it that bothers me is "I wake up from a long rest, eat breakfast, and then take a short rest." If the party didn't immediately rest after using the hex slot, it wouldn't bother me at all, even if they decided to rest at lunchtime without having had any encounters in the morning.

But I don't think that bothers me enough to ban the practice. Mostly I'm just arguing that a DM is within their rights to ban the practice if they find it abusive.

 

[Oofta]

You can, I hope, see how your post gave the impression that simply time passing and going about your day would bring on concentration checks that would thwart concentrating on hex for it's eventual 8-hour or 24-hour duration?

I've clarified it several times now ... sorry if you missed that. The only guaranteed way to lose concentration outside of casting another concentration spell in my game would be to take a nap or otherwise going unconscious.

 

[Phazonfish]

I suppose the only aspect of it that bothers me is "I wake up from a long rest, eat breakfast, and then take a short rest." If the party didn't immediately rest after using the hex slot, it wouldn't bother me at all, even if they decided to rest at lunchtime without having had any encounters in the morning.

But I don't think that bothers me enough to ban the practice. Mostly I'm just arguing that a DM is within their rights to ban the practice if they find it abusive.

I see what you mean, but it seems natural enough to me if the short rest is viewed (from the character's perspective) as an extension of the night's rest before it. The short rest is like the characters waking up and performing the early morning rituals they do to prepare for the day ahead of them. Everybody eats breakfast, the fighter probably maintains their armor and weaponry, the cleric probably says a few prayers, the warlock sacrifices a chicken to their patron. By comparison, waking up and beelining for somewhere to explore actually seems more metagame-y to me. You could say there is time in the long rest alone to be doing these things, but you are only allowed so much activity during it, which you probably spent on watch unless you are somewhere you feel safe.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

What I don't want to see IMC is gaming the system like it's some kind of video game that you're trying to find loopholes in. That sort of thing ruins everyone's fun and devolves the game into absurdity.

But it isn't gaming the system! It's just how the spell works, both in the world and in the mechanics. You can hex a creature, and then the spell just lasts the duration barring losing concentration. That is, in the world that we are pretending is real while in character, how the spell works.

I'd be completely baffled if I started the day using my survival skill (i make weird characters okay? sometimes you wanna play a rogue/warlock who was a horse thief and is now a knight of the queen of nocturne, the fey city of eternal moonlight) to hunt down some food for the party, and I sacrificed my kill according to tradition, giving the power of the kill to my patron as part of using my power, and the DM interjects into that roleplaying scene to tell me that I can't do it because they think that hexing a non-combat target and killing it at the start of the day is "cheesy" or whatever.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I suppose the only aspect of it that bothers me is "I wake up from a long rest, eat breakfast, and then take a short rest." If the party didn't immediately rest after using the hex slot, it wouldn't bother me at all, even if they decided to rest at lunchtime without having had any encounters in the morning.

But I don't think that bothers me enough to ban the practice. Mostly I'm just arguing that a DM is within their rights to ban the practice if they find it abusive.

I mean, technically the DM is within their rights to ban anything, for any reason. That doesn't make it reasonable.

In this case, though, I don't see how a reasonable DM could come to the conclusion that banning it makes sense.
Even the example of taking a short rest immediately...

I see what you mean, but it seems natural enough to me if the short rest is viewed (from the character's perspective) as an extension of the night's rest before it. The short rest is like the characters waking up and performing the early morning rituals they do to prepare for the day ahead of them. Everybody eats breakfast, the fighter probably maintains their armor and weaponry, the cleric probably says a few prayers, the warlock sacrifices a chicken to their patron. By comparison, waking up and beelining for somewhere to explore actually seems more metagame-y to me. You could say there is time in the long rest alone to be doing these things, but you are only allowed so much activity during it, which you probably spent on watch unless you are somewhere you feel safe.

...this.

A "short rest" isn't a thing that characters think about as such. It's a result of being safe and fairly comfortable for an hour. Spending an hour eating breakfast and performing various daily and eldritch rituals before heading out seems completely rational to me.

 

[Fanaelialae]

But it isn't gaming the system! It's just how the spell works, both in the world and in the mechanics. You can hex a creature, and then the spell just lasts the duration barring losing concentration. That is, in the world that we are pretending is real while in character, how the spell works.

I'd be completely baffled if I started the day using my survival skill (i make weird characters okay? sometimes you wanna play a rogue/warlock who was a horse thief and is now a knight of the queen of nocturne, the fey city of eternal moonlight) to hunt down some food for the party, and I sacrificed my kill according to tradition, giving the power of the kill to my patron as part of using my power, and the DM interjects into that roleplaying scene to tell me that I can't do it because they think that hexing a non-combat target and killing it at the start of the day is "cheesy" or whatever.

Like I said, I'd be okay with the warlock casting Hex without a target.

I'd also be okay with you hunting down a rabbit and sacrificing it to your patron.

But don't bring a chicken coop with you just so you can bring hex online. It doesn't feel authentic to all. I'm unconvinced that the player is doing it to RP. IMO, they're doing it to game the system. For a fairly minimal benefit. If they're willing to go to such an extent for such a marginal benefit, it wouldn't be surprising to me if they tried to game the system in much more extravagant ways, RP justification or no. Once that happens, the game devolves into an issue of Knights of the Dinner Table.

 

[Umbran]

Because you are coming off as a toxic person. Aka bad player.

Mod Note:

So, jumping to that kind of public aspersion after a few words on a messageboard ain't exactly stellar either. You probably want to tone it down about three notches.

 

[billd91]

But it isn't gaming the system! It's just how the spell works, both in the world and in the mechanics. You can hex a creature, and then the spell just lasts the duration barring losing concentration. That is, in the world that we are pretending is real while in character, how the spell works.

I'd be completely baffled if I started the day using my survival skill (i make weird characters okay? sometimes you wanna play a rogue/warlock who was a horse thief and is now a knight of the queen of nocturne, the fey city of eternal moonlight) to hunt down some food for the party, and I sacrificed my kill according to tradition, giving the power of the kill to my patron as part of using my power, and the DM interjects into that roleplaying scene to tell me that I can't do it because they think that hexing a non-combat target and killing it at the start of the day is "cheesy" or whatever.

I don't really have a problem with it, but it really is kind of gaming the system. You're expending the resource to cast it and then using the game rules on a warlock's spell recovery to regain the resource, while keeping the effect of the spell going, before "starting" the adventuring day. The fact that someone came up with an "offering" to justify it from an in-character role playing (despite the idea that such an offering may not really be in character for all warlocky patrons) doesn't negate the fact that exploiting the mechanics is the driver of the behavior.