D&D General Hey, are we all cool with having to buy the same book twice, or what?

[Guest 6801328]

The "rent vs own" issue is frequently one I think is based on principle rather than practical use.

I think there are a lot of "rented" services that reasonably last so long that they cover the likely lifetime usage of your average user. The usage someone would want beyond that time frame is typically a "maybe I'd still want to play some day" or "maybe I want to hand it down to my kids some day" type usage, which practically speaking often doesn't happen even if it's owned. Not even accounting for destruction or loss that happens naturally over time to a lot of people.

I can understand the principle behind "I want to own it" but I think sometimes people shoot themselves in the foot focusing too much on the principle and took little on the practical use they'd get out of the likely time frame they will have the use.

For example, let's take the 4e D&D Insider. It was rented by users, but only ended a few months ago after a 13 year run. Probably 95%+ of the users of that platform were not using it anymore. They had already moved on to other games, and whatever they were going to get out of that platform they already got.

You might argue "but I'd have gone back to use them in future games" but...come on. We both know that for most people, that's very rare, and even among those who do get some use for future editions, the usage is pretty low and easily replaced most of the time.

And then there is the question of how many people experience theft or destruction of their physical books after that long a period of time? My guess is more than 5%.

The remaining 5% or so of the renters did indeed run into the rent vs own issue, but I think a lot more than 5% objected to the model when it was proposed. Most people who objected to the model on principle ended up never experiencing the predicted harm in any practical way - they were finished with it before it was taken down anyway.

I think practically speaking, there isn't really much of a rent vs own issue people experience. What issue there is, is often exaggerated based on the principle of the thing. And I am not sure what value there is to a principle which has so little utility as a practical issue.

If World of Warcraft ever...ever...shuts down their servers I expect a refund for each edition I bought.

And I'm going to hold my breath until that happens. Starting now.

 

[Oofta]

Ah yes, I keep forgetting about the plague of Library Dinosaurs that go into most people's books collection and make them illegible and unable to be used. Even your example there is perfectly usable. But, that's not really the point.

How much you want to bet there will at least be one single intact copy of the PHB in the whole wide world by the time the service is discontinued, or ten or twenty or even fifty years after?

You know how many copies of your books you'll have the day after Beyond stops working? Zero.

Good thing you have the option to purchase a physical backup imprinted on a thin sheet material produced from cellulose fibers derived from wood.

Or, I don't know, just never subscribe to DndBeyond.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Thankfully, when DnDBeyond does vanish into the aether of the web—assuming no one has turned a webscraper onto it and copied it's files to make an offline version—it will be many years into 6e.

If I were placing a bet i'd agree with you...but there is nothing preventing some investment firm buying them out, shutting down the site, and porting the talent over to some other project. Or a bankruptcy due to various reasons. Or some sort of worldwide pandemic making the service illegal to run.

The fact remains that even if you pay for a service, your legal access to that service doesn't keep that service running due to unforseen issues.

This is why some people want full control over the content that they purchase, whether that content be physical or electronic.

Microsoft closing down their Bookstore

In this example....users who purchased (not rented) a book found out that in the fine print they really on were renting it for the life of the service. There was no ability to download their books and port them to another 3rd party system for reading.

For customers that had purchased books...they were offered a refund. Except that its not a proper refund, but instead credited in the Microsoft Store (which has less real value than the equivalent USD amount) and any work that had been done on those books (in the case of notes and annotations) is just lost with no ability to retain in some format. Furthermore, replacing a book refunded in this manner may not be as simple as just purchasing it at another location for the same price.

Avoiding this happening to your data is why some people want full control over the content that they purchase.

 

[Jester David]

Ah yes, I keep forgetting about the plague of Library Dinosaurs that go into most people's books collection and make them illegible and unable to be used. Even your example there is perfectly usable. But, that's not really the point.

I'm a librarian. It's my literal job to keep books intact. And I can tell you that the ONLY books that remain intact are ones not being read.

The only way you can ensure you always have that library of physical books is to never, ever read them. Otherwise the glue cracks and pages fall out, pages get torn, drinks get spilt, pets and children get at them, etc.
I have lost multiple gaming books to Act of Dog.

How much you want to bet there will at least be one single intact copy of the PHB in the whole wide world by the time the service is discontinued, or ten or twenty or even fifty years after?

Exactly!
I got into D&D in the early '90s and didn't get interested in the history of the game until the '00s. I still have no problems tracking down a copy of the 1e core rulebooks for a song.
And I needn't have bothered as I can have a perfect mint condition copy printed for me in my choice of hard or softcover:

Players Handbook (1e) - Wizards of the Coast | AD&D 1st Ed. | Rules | AD&D 1st Ed. | Dungeon Masters Guild

Players Handbook (1e) - The 1st Edition Player's Handbook is back! No more searching through stacks of books and magazines to find out what you

www.dmsguild.com

If someone wants to get the physical books after they lose access to DnDBeyond sometime in the next twenty years I guarantee there will be zero problems.
Losing digital access doesn't mean the game will suddenly, magically vanish.

You know how many copies of your books you'll have the day after Beyond stops working? Zero.

Yes. I also have zero copies of the non-core 4e books despite having paid hundreds of dollars to DDI.
Not that I noticed after November 2010 because I stopped playing 4e then and likely won't play it ever again.
And even if I did decide to have a retrospective game of 4e, again, there's Print on Demand copies and cheap used copies in many gaming and used book stores.

That doesn't mean I wasted that money. Not any more than it's wasting $20 to go see a film in the theaters and only get use of it once rather than purchase it on VHS.
Because you still have a VHS player, right?

Do you also have a problem with Netflix and paying for that service??

 

[eyeheartawk]

Do you also have a problem with Netflix and paying for that service??

Should I? Did they start charging for shows and movies on top of the subscription fee?

 

[Mistwell]

If I were placing a bet i'd agree with you...but there is nothing preventing some investment firm buying them out, shutting down the site, and porting the talent over to some other project. Or a bankruptcy due to various reasons. Or some sort of worldwide pandemic making the service illegal to run.

The fact remains that even if you pay for a service, your legal access to that service doesn't keep that service running due to unforseen issues.

This is why some people want full control over the content that they purchase, whether that content be physical or electronic.

Microsoft closing down their Bookstore

In this example....users who purchased (not rented) a book found out that in the fine print they really on were renting it for the life of the service. There was no ability to download their books and port them to another 3rd party system for reading.

For customers that had purchased books...they were offered a refund. Except that its not a proper refund, but instead credited in the Microsoft Store (which has less real value than the equivalent USD amount) and any work that had been done on those books (in the case of notes and annotations) is just lost with no ability to retain in some format. Furthermore, replacing a book refunded in this manner may not be as simple as just purchasing it at another location for the same price.

Avoiding this happening to your data is why some people want full control over the content that they purchase.

Full control is a bit of an illusion though. I live in California for example. Tomorrow there could be an earthquake that would prevent me from accessing my books forever. Much like the same earthquake could drive businesses to bankruptcy shutting down their electronic service. Both are simply Acts of God which result in an end to access to the content, but one you're characterizing as "not full control" and the other you are characterizing as "full control" even though you lose access for the same type of reason (Act of God) to the same content.

Again, I think most of this is a theoretical principle of the thing. And I am asking - is it really a principle if it isn't likely to be a practical issue during your own lifetime expected use of the content?

 

[Mistwell]

Should I? Did they start charging for shows and movies on top of the subscription fee?

Fine, replace "Netflix" with "Amazon Prime".

 

[Bravesteel25]

Should I? Did they start charging for shows and movies on top of the subscription fee?

Please. DDB isn't charging for books on top of a subscription fee which gives access to that content. The subscription fee gives you early access to tools and the ability to share your purchases with your group.

 

[Parmandur]

Fine, replace "Netflix" with "Amazon Prime".

Coincidentally, the Beyond business model was developed when they were an Amazon company...

 

[eyeheartawk]

Full control is a bit of an illusion though. I live in California for example. Tomorrow there could be an earthquake that would prevent me from accessing my books forever. Much like the same earthquake could drive businesses to bankruptcy shutting down their electronic service. Both are simply Acts of God which result in an end to access to the content, but one you're characterizing as "not full control" and the other you are characterizing as "full control" even though you lose access for the same type of reason (Act of God) to the same content.

Again, I think most of this is a theoretical principle of the thing. And I am asking - is it really a principle if it isn't likely to be a practical issue during your own lifetime expected use of the content?

But it's not, though?

You losing your books to actual act of god is unlikely. Losing access to your purchases on DDB at some future point is very likely.

Fine, replace "Netflix" with "Amazon Prime".

I pay for Prime but don't buy any media on it since it can be taken from me at any time. Does that make sense?

Please. DDB isn't charging for books on top of a subscription fee which gives access to that content. The subscription fee gives you early access to tools and the ability to share your purchases with your group.

I know that.

This was in regard to a hypothetical I was asked about Netflix.