D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[cmad1977]

I haven’t read the thread but... usually tusks?

 

[Charlaquin]

The ability bonuses are a hot topic, but I am in favour of keeping them, especially for physical stats. Hell, I'd be willing to give a strength penalty for small species such as gnomes and halflings. I know that D&D is far from realistic but I guess this is the hill my suspension of disbelief has decided to die on. It just can't handle orcs not being stronger than gnomes. YMMV.

Gnomes can already be stronger than orcs. Even with the current +2 strength orcs get, and even if you added a -2 strength to gnomes, it is possible under all three ability score generation methods to get an orc with a strength as low as 10 (or even as low as 5 if you roll for stats) and a gnome with a strength as high as 13 (or as high as 16 if you roll). Racial ability score adjustments don’t prevent characters of certain races from being better than characters of other races in their own area of competence, all they accomplish is to make certain race/class combinations more optimized than others. Which is not, in my opinion, a desirable goal.

 

[Charlaquin]

Eh. Some campaign settings are more cosmopolitan than others. Sometimes the elves live in the hidden city of Gondolin, sometimes the elves live in the apartments above the bakery next door.

I think part of having a diverse and interesting setting is having both isolated, homogenous societies and cosmopolitan, heterogeneous societies. Maybe “wood elves” live in the hidden city of Gondolin, while “city elves” live in the apartments above the bakery next door. And if a player wants to play the one human who was raised among the wood elves of Gondolin, let them!

 

[Redwizard007]

I probably wouldn’t do the “orcs tend to act more impulsively than others in their culture” idea. Impulsivity should probably be a product of culture, rather than biology.

I don't entirely disagree, but I am still generally in the physical = racial camp. That being said, my opinion is not set in stone and I would be happy to play a system that focused on the ideas that upbringing played a larger role in character generation than genetics (or bloodline/psudoscience/whatever.)

 

[Bacon Bits]

If you remove their biases, they are just fancy humans with a mask.

Essentially all fantasy and sci-fi characters are humans with a mask. That's the central conceit. When we imagine non-human intelligence, we nearly always assume that it's human-like. Everyone from elves and dwarves to angels and demons and even gods. We anthropomorphize everything because we can't barely conceive of a being that is unlike us. If a character is unlike us, then it's either an animalistic monster, or else something so bizarre that we can't understand it.

Star Trek, Star Wars, D&D, Marvel Cinematic Universe, etc. Aliens are just us, but with a funny mask and one human trait turned up to 11. All we ever create are mirrors, and we view ourselves through the mirror, darkly.

The reason is very simple. We only know one kind of intelligence: human intelligence. There's none other that we can communicate with. How can we imagine something new when what we don't even know what is possible? If you have only ever known the apple, how can you conceive of the orange let alone the almond?

So we only make one culture for each race, typically. Not because it must be so or because it's realistic, but because the visual distinction is what keys us in to a different culture. Like going to Egypt and seeing the different dress. That's the trapping of the different culture. It doesn't matter if it's unrealistic. It serves the central conceit.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't entirely disagree, but I am still generally in the physical = racial camp. That being said, my opinion is not set in stone and I would be happy to play a system that focused on the ideas that upbringing played a larger role in character generation than genetics (or bloodline/psudoscience/whatever.)

I feel you on that. Impulsivity isn’t really physical, but that example aside, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with orcs being bigger and stronger than humans on average or what have you. I do have a problem with orcs being inherently better suited to being fighters and worse suited to being wizards than members of other races are. Racial ability bonuses and penalties (especially penalties) lead to a situation where the latter is the case, and leaving them out does not prevent the former from being the case. So, I’m in favor of their removal.

 

[Shiroiken]

IMO orcs, like every other intelligent creatures (humanoid or otherwise), are a completely foreign species. Humanoids are physically similar in that they have overlapping characteristics (arms, hands, legs, feet, etc.), but they are not the same mentally. Mentally each species is distinct, with a percentage of abnormalities, some of which given a different nurturing environment can break from their stereotypical behaviors. It's a combination of nature (racial characteristics) and nurture (early environment).

Back to orcs: we know their physical characteristics, so now we have to look at their mental characteristics. They are traditionally very aggressive and cruel, implying they probably have a higher rate of adrenaline and testosterone than humans do. This natural inclination of agression for the species creates a society that lends itself towards cruelty. If an orc were born with lower levels of those hormones they may not have the same aggressive tendencies and/or cruelty. Thus the traditional orc is a brutal, evil savage mostly because of their nature and their nurture, but some of them will deviate from this norm.

 

[Helldritch]

Essentially all fantasy and sci-fi characters are humans with a mask. That's the central conceit. When we imagine non-human intelligence, we nearly always assume that it's human-like. Everyone from elves and dwarves to angels and demons and even gods. We anthropomorphize everything because we can't barely conceive of a being that is unlike us. If a character is unlike us, then it's either an animalistic monster, or else something so bizarre that we can't understand it.

Star Trek, Star Wars, D&D, Marvel Cinematic Universe, etc. Aliens are just us, but with a funny mask and one human trait turned up to 11. All we ever create are mirrors, and we view ourselves through the mirror, darkly.

The reason is very simple. We only know one kind of intelligence: human intelligence. There's none other that we can communicate with. How can we imagine something new when what we don't even know what is possible? If you have only ever known the apple, how can you conceive of the orange let alone the almond?

So we only make one culture for each race, typically. Not because it must be so or because it's realistic, but because the visual distinction is what keys us in to a different culture. Like going to Egypt and seeing the different dress. That's the trapping of the different culture. It doesn't matter if it's unrealistic. It serves the central conceit.

Pretty much on point. But by making humanoids (good and bad ones) more or less monolisthic we get the illusion of alienness. They are something strange and either idealized or demonized, a goal to strive for or something to be affraid of becomming. If they become as varied as any human then why not remove races altogether? They are just humans with fuzzy looking masks.

@Charlaquin
Why the sadness at my post? This is pretty much where all races are as cultured as humans will lead to. This will remove any prestance of racism in the game. Homogenized races all over with no flavors. From all the other threads this is exactly what some people are claiming without saying it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Impulsivity should probably be a product of culture, rather than biology.

Exclusively? I strongly disagree, as someone whose impulsivity is a result of physical imbalances of chemicals that impact behavior.

 

[Charlaquin]

Exclusively? I strongly disagree, as someone whose impulsivity is a result of physical imbalances of chemicals that impact behavior.

Sure, but I don’t think we need to be tying it to race.