D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[Helldritch]

I’m not really interested in engaging with the absurd argument that races having diverse cultures makes them humans with Halloween costumes. But to this point I will reply that you don’t have to make orc wizards exactly the same as elf wizards. You can make them equally effective wizards that are still different. If the only change you make is to throw out ability score bonuses, you’ll have elf wizards with keener senses, trained to use a wider array of weapons, and who either know more cantrips and languages, or can run faster and hide in natural terrain more easily, and orc wizards who are more menacing, hit harder with weapons, and can get knocked down but get up again (you ain’t never gonna keep them down). You could take this even further. Give your elf wizards deeper knowledge of the arcane to reflect their longer years of study. Give them a special affinity with spells that tap into the primal magics of the natural world. Give them secret techniques that blend magic and swordplay. Give your orc wizards more powerful destructive spells. Give them resistance to the magics granted by other cultures’ gods. There are all sorts of ways to differentiate characters of different ancestries besides just making them exactly the same but with lower numbers.

So if I understand correctly, no racial bonuses to stats but racial bonuses anyways? Or would they be cultural bonuses that similar culture would have available?
If it is the former, why do you ask for a change? There is absolutely no gain in what you're offering as in the end, it will be the same.

If it is the second, then races no longer matters. We are back at the halloween costume.

If you were proposing a blend of the two, would certain races be barred from certain culture or would it be an open bar? If the latter, why not keep the racial stats an introduce cultural bonuses only? This would be something that I would be ready to go for.

 

[BrokenTwin]

I'm still of the opinion that implementing +1 to primary from class and drop the +2 racial bonuses to +1 solves the problem nicely. A half-orc will need to sacrifice less to get their 18 at level four (they could take a feat that gives +1 to Strength) than the halfling would need to for the same score, but both characters can reach it at the same time. Ancestries still get their natural differences represented, and the players are all on the same foot. Everybody wins?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Wasn’t it you who earlier in this conversation said you don’t care about random ability score generation because nobody you know uses it?

Yes, rolling for starting abilities does go a long way towards making nonstandard race/class combinations more viable. It also introduces completely different issues. I use it in some campaigns, and not in others. What I am more concerned with for the purpose of this conversation is the default rules, which means the standard array.

Other way around. My people love random rolling for stats, and hate point buy. Is standard array really the default? On page 13 of the PH, it says you roll your stats, or alternately use the array. Point buy is presented as a variant. I do believe Adventurer's League uses the array, but that's organized play and a different beast IMHO.

 

[Mr Fixit]

Helldritch is onto something.

I don't quite understand why ability scores are being singled out. So, no race should be mechanically stronger or less intelligent than others because of potential real-world parallels, feeding into stereotypes etc. Fine. But what about all other mechanical expressions of race? Skill benefits, speed, advantage to saves, innate magical abilities, etc? Heck, even life expectancy?

 

[Charlaquin]

That was me. Maybe they said it too?

Ahh, my mistake. Sorry.

 

[Hussar]

Why are people so fixated on major rewrites? No one is actually advocating for major rewrites to orcs are they?

Strip out the obviously racist bits, and poof, you're done. There's nothing wrong with savage, strong, militant race. That's an archetype that works and no one has a major problem with. Heck, Klingons show exactly how this can be done.

So, why all the noise and thunder about how they're going to completely rewrite orcs into something totally different? Who is advocating that? Has anyone advocated that?

Or is that just the convenient straw man that has been invented to avoid actually talking about the real issues?

 

[Bacon Bits]

No, I’m saying races should not grant ability score adjustments. There should still be point buy, arrays, stat rolls, and ability score adjustments from other sources. If you removed the ability score adjustments from races in 5e you’d probably need to give everyone a floating +2 and +1 to compensate. The issue is not that different characters have different ability scores. The issue is that racial ability score adjustments shoehorn certain races into certain classes, which is limiting for roleplay and echoes racist tropes like the concept of the “warrior race.”

I think it's more natural to move them to classes.

Artificer: You gain +2 to Constitution or +2 to Intelligence. Then chose one ability score other than the one you increased, and increase that ability by +1.
Barbarian: You gain +2 to Strength or +2 to Constitution. Then chose one ability score other than the one you increased, and increase that ability by +1.
Bard: You gain +2 to Charisma or +2 to Dexterity or +2 to Intelligence. Then chose one ability score other than the one you increased, and increase that ability by +1.
Cleric: +2 Wis or +2 to Str. Then choose [...]
Druid: +2 Wis or +2 Int. [...]
Fighter: +2 Str or +2 Dex or +2 Con. [...]
Monk: +2 Wis, +2 Dex
Paladin: +2 Cha, +2 Str
Ranger: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +2 Str
Rogue: +2 Dex, +2 Str, +2 Int
Sorc: +2 Cha, +2 Con
Warlock: +2 Cha, +2 Dex, +2 Int
Wiz: +2 Int, +2 Wis

Ideally they would move selecting your subclass to level 1 for all classes, and then move the alternate, non-primary stat choice to your particular subclass. That way Bard College of Swords could be +2 Cha or +2 Str, Fighter Arcane Knight could be +2 Str or +2 Int, etc. However, I think they should move that choice anyways so they can use subclasses as kits that modify weapon, armor, and skill proficiencies from level 1 in any situation. I think that was a pretty clear design error.

 

[Laurefindel]

(...)
How do we tell classic stories in the mythic vein if we get rid of these archetypes? By growing in our willingness and ability to tell more complex stories. IRL, Europe was very much in danger of hordes from the East invading and causing all sorts of sorrow . . . . demonizing the Mongol invaders as sub-human monsters, orcs, isn't necessary to tell exciting adventure stories. The antagonists just become more real, more human, more three-dimensional. It makes good storytelling a little harder (not much, really), but it makes it so much more rich and so less problematic and racist.
(...)

Yeah, I've been giving a lot of thought about that recently...

The Star Wars universe actually does a relatively good job at dissociating archetype from race/species. It does not completely avoid stereotypes (Twi'lek exotic dancer, brutish Garmorean guard, fascist standardized empire, etc), but these stereotypes are spread around without too much discrimination. Although you need to look into the animated series/novels/comics to have a broader view, characters of different species are given all kinds of roles and archetypes.

Twi'leks for example are also portrayed as pilots, revolutionaries, adoptive/reconstituted families, minion-in-chief, treacherous bounty-hunters, heroes, villains. Not sure about Garmorean however... Anyway, the point is, in Star Wars, it's usually easy to tell whether someone is good or evil - oftentimes at a glance! - but it won't be that character's species that will tell you that.

And Star Wars is more fantasy than sci-fi, so it's doable for sure. It might be hard to reconcile with most published settings however.

 

[Charlaquin]

So if I understand correctly, no racial bonuses to stats but racial bonuses anyways? Or would they be cultural bonuses that similar culture would have available?
If it is the former, why do you ask for a change? There is absolutely no gain in what you're offering as in the end, it will be the same.

I disagree the former would be the same. You would have different race/class combinations feel and play meaningfully differently, without giving any a strict statistical advantage. That would be vastly preferable over the current state of D&D races. That said, my ideal would be more of a combination. Separate race from culture, and give various features for each. But leave ability score adjustments out of race because they only result in the shoehorning of certain races into certain class roles.

If it is the second, then races no longer matters. We are back at the halloween costume.

This Halloween costume argument is nonsense and I have no interest in engaging with it.

If you were proposing a blend of the two, would certain races be barred from certain culture or would it be an open bar? If the latter, why not keep the racial stats an introduce cultural bonuses only? This would be something that I would be ready to go for.

I would be open to ability score adjustments based on culture rather than on race, if the two were separated. As for whether to have certain cultures be exclusive to certain races? I would prefer they be open to all. By all means, have certain cultures be tied to certain races in the narrative, but allow players to play the exception to the trend if they want to.

 

[Charlaquin]

Helldritch is onto something.

I don't quite understand why ability scores are being singled out. So, no race should be mechanically stronger or less intelligent than others because of potential real-world parallels, feeding into stereotypes etc. Fine. But what about all other mechanical expressions of race? Skill benefits, speed, advantage to saves, innate magical abilities, etc? Heck, even life expectancy?

What I am advocating for is using those other mechanical expressions to hilight the differences instead of ability score increases, so as to avoid the issue of certain races being inherently better or worse at certain classes.