D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[Oofta]

I had a longer post but It's impossible to have a discussion when people can't even explain what the fundamental issue is other than relying on the old "X is a problem because I say it is", "we've already proven it" and so on and so forth.

The argument in a nutshell from my perspective:

1. Assume that orcs represent a group of real world people
2. Discrimination against those people based on how they look or act is wrong (I don't think anyone here contests this)
3. Conclusion? Saying bad things about orcs is saying bad things about real world people. See #2
4. Question whether orcs represent real world people? See #1

So it never ends. People always bring up Tolkien, previous editions or just make assertions as fact.

Have a good one.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Yes. As I and others have suggested many times, a specific and unique mechanic that represented "strong" or "nimble" or whatever would be a much better way of conveying a race's advantages, than would a boringly simplistic + to a starting ability score, an advantage that would eventually get blurred or erased by ASIs anyway.

The tricky part...tricky, not impossible...is to make it an advantage that has minimal symmetry with certain classes, or with the stat itself.

So, for example, giving a "strong" race increased carrying capacity (regardless of whether that's useful or just a ribbon) is useful for any class.

For "nimble", how about a straight +1 bonus to Initiative rolls?

For "smart", something involving Perception (which is the super-skill, after all)

Etc.

The dreaded term 'disassociated mechanics' was already brought up earlier, and this is getting too close to that for my liking. I mean we literally have a score called 'Strength.' If that score does not measure how strong the character is, then to me it has become a disassociated mechanic. Now, I get that how closely people want their mechanics and lore to be linked varies greatly, but to me this is a big deal and I gladly accept some imbalance if it means mechanics remaining more strongly associated.

 

[Flamestrike]

Orcs are savage, bestial, stupid and superstitious. They are uncultured, poor makers of things, illiterate and sexually voracious. They are violent and lustful no matter how they may appear. Half-Orcs, by tempering their orc parts with superior human intellect and control, can be leaders in an orc tribe, but their savage and brutal nature relegates them to the slums of human society

And literally all of that is cultural. There is literally a single sentence to Orcs being inherently drawn to acting 'savage' in all of 5E lore, and the rest is simply a statement of Orc culture (in Faerun, and to a lesser extent Oerth),

The book even states that an Orc, raised in a Good aligned society, will likely be Good aligned, however he will have to resist his urges towards savagery.

He gets angry easier than his human friends, and is more prone to 'seeing red' and lashing out. He can otherwise be a kind, merciful, altruistic and charitable being.

None of that is going to change. It's just going to be spelt out clearer going forwards so you dont have (for example) people constantly arguing 'it's OK to commit merciless genocide on Orcs because they're evil' which is an argument advanced on this very forum, a mere few weeks before WOTC's announcement.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I cannot think off the top of my head, a single "tribal" race that is not seen as wild or evil, usually both.

Centaurs?

And, while I certainly can appreciate the time and effort that went into your post, I don't see nearly any of the things you list as "problems" actually being problems. Why? Because they are horrible, surely, and although some might reflect a similar horrible nature in humans, that is the problem of humanity, not "orcdom", and shows how the two are distinct.

There are violent, tribal cultures in human history, seen as "evil" maybe in today's morale compass. Modeling a fantasy race after them might invoke negative feelings about one's past if they are associated with the culture, and I get that, but if you can step back instead and really understand that it is a game, this isn't real, and frankly if those evil cultures are in your game world, then you/your PC can act to try to change them there if you want.

I know whites did absolutely horrible things to American Indians (I think that is the correct term today, forgive me if I am wrong), but if a fantasy culture was based on what whites did historically, I would not see myself in them. I know, that is me and what about the people who do? Well, you only give power to things you choose to give power to. The choice is yours. It isn't easy, sure, but it is your choice.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I had a longer post but It's impossible to have a discussion when people can't even explain what the fundamental issue is other than relying on the old "X is a problem because I say it is", "we've already proven it" and so on and so forth.

The argument in a nutshell from my perspective:

1. Assume that orcs represent a group of real world people

Nope. Wrong. That's not what people are saying. That's how it is being mischaracterized by those who don't want to have to understand.

Please believe me that if you still think that's what's going on, you really really do not understand the problem. Instead of doggedly returning to this strawman every time you post, please ask questions, read what people are writing, and try to understand.

Don’t make it personal, please.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I know whites did absolutely horrible things to American Indians (I think that is the correct term today, forgive me if I am wrong), but if a fantasy culture was based on what whites did historically, I would not see myself in them. I know, that is me and what about the people who do? Well, you only give power to things you choose to give power to. The choice is yours. It isn't easy, sure, but it is your choice.

Do you understand that in common D&D portrayal it is the 'evil orcs' that are cast in the role of Native Americans and it is the 'good heroes' who are in the role of the white settlers. That is super disturbing. "Lets slaughter these primitive natives except this time it is completely justified because it says 'chaotic evil' in their stat block." That's just flarked up, I'd side with the orcs.

Language, please.,

 

[Remathilis]

So, yes, rape between enemy peoples has been common throughout history. But here's the question, that I'm only asking you to think about, not answer: how often do you envision Half-elves as being the product of rape, versus Half-orcs? If it's not approximately equal, then you have fallen for a variant of racist propaganda that exactly mirrors the propaganda used in the real world, historically and present day, to dehumanize others.

I assume you've never heard of the Valenar elves? Or the Drow elves (which can still produce half-elven children)? I can imagine such a half-elf born from these cultures.

 

[Flamestrike]

The argument in a nutshell from my perspective:

1. Assume that orcs represent a group of real world people
2. Discrimination against those people based on how they look or act is wrong (I don't think anyone here contests this)
3. Conclusion? Saying bad things about orcs is saying bad things about real world people. See #2
4. Question whether orcs represent real world people? See #1

No, the argument is that labelling a sentient species capable of feeling, loving, redemption, charity, mercy, altruism, love and kindness (i.e. Orcs) as 'vermin, worthy of only genocide because they're inherently evil' - which from memory is something you tried to do a few weeks back, along with @Helldritch - is problematic to say the least.

Orcs are (mostly) evil in Faerun and Oerth because they worship evil gods who impel them to murder, rape, slaughter and conquer. Their society gives them this tendency towards evil. An Orc can be raised to show love, compassion, kindness, altruism and mercy. They have feelings and can change. They'll be naturally easier to anger and be drawn into violence (at present) which is an urge they'll have to fight against for their whole life to maintain that Good alignment.

Any human society that greenlit genocide against a neighbouring Orc village is also evil, because they're engaging in precisely the sort of thing that makes Orcs evil themselves to begin with.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I know whites did absolutely horrible things to American Indians (I think that is the correct term today, forgive me if I am wrong), but if a fantasy culture was based on what whites did historically, I would not see myself in them.

First, "I would not see myself in them" is mischaracterizing the problem in the same way Oofta does.

Second, you and your family are not the victims of systemic discrimination resulting from such a caricature.

Now, we could play a thought experiment. We might say, "Imagine that the native americans kicked the Europeans' collective @$$es, drove them back across the ocean, then took their women and sailed back to America, kicking off several centuries of subjugation and exploitation, so that today your family still lives in poverty on a reservation in central Greenland, with a government that largely ignores you. How would you feel if the villains in media (books, movies, games) were often described using the same language that had been used for centuries to justify treating your ancestors...and your current relatives, and you...this way?"

But, of course, that thought experiment fails, because you (and I) can try to imagine for a few minutes what that must feel like, but we cannot experience what it actually feels like to live under that for literally our entire lives.

As I said before, literally the least, tiniest, most inconsequential thing we can do...short of doing absolutely nothing...is to say, "Really? This language in my game of make-believe is hurtful? Well, f$#k, I didn't realize that. How can I help?"

But, no, that's too much to ask. Apparently.

Shameful.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I assume you've never heard of the Valenar elves? Or the Drow elves (which can still produce half-elven children)? I can imagine such a half-elf born from these cultures.

Oh, well, gosh, I suppose those exceptions completely invalidate the premise. I guess there's no racism underlying the tropes in D&D after all.

WTF??!?!?!?!