D&D 5E Precision Attack + SS + CBE is like +2d6 sword

[FrogReaver]

This is preposterous even for you. Of course the crossbow fighter comes out ahead if you give them a free feat.

I wanted to come back to this for a moment. I think you are missing the forest for the trees. If I'm wanting people that don't understand the power of feats to get a grasp on them, I don't compare a character with feats to a character with different feats. I compare a character with feats to a character without feats (or at least without offensive ones).

When doing that you find that you would need approximately a +2d6 weapon to compare.

All your comparisons and criticisms seem to be trying to compare a feated character to another feated character - which really misses the point of what I'm showing here.

 

[FrogReaver]

Edit: In fact I will take this 1 step further... I am a DM that worries about Optimization but I don’t worry about feats. So I am your target audience. Tell me in plain English why I should worry about feats in general or the -5 to hit + 10 feats in particular.

I'm not talking about the -5/+10 feats in isolation. I'm talking about a specific combination with them.

If a Variant human fighter shows up to your game that's building for CBE + SS + Precision Attack then from level 4 on he will be doing damage as if he had a +2d6 weapon in comparison to any other fighter at your table that isn't using a damage feat. If you prefer percentages that's about 70% more damage (give or take a little).

 

[DnD Warlord]

I'm not talking about the -5/+10 feats in isolation. I'm talking about a specific combination with them.

If a Variant human fighter shows up to your game that's building for CBE + SS + Precision Attack then from level 4 on he will be doing damage as if he had a +2d6 weapon in comparison to any other fighter at your table that isn't using a damage feat. If you prefer percentages that's about 70% more damage (give or take a little).

Since I have very rarely (in the last 25ish years I have been running maybe twice) seen 2 player both as the same class building for damage at a table. So I don’t get this at all.

as I said uo thread if we were playing in my current game and removed the fighter I have (psi warrior play test) and slotted in either a sword and board fighter or your variant human duel cross bow weirder. The sword and board would be MORE help... we have a warlock /sorcer who alreadyis ranged and a rogue... the sword and board fighter would be better equipped to grant the rogue sneak attack (at 5th level that is 3d6 extra damage)

 

[DnD Warlord]

Those terms have been in use 30+ years. It's not jargon at this point. It's common knowledge and very straightforward terminology. A +1 weapon is a weapon that adds +1 to hit and +1 to damage. A +2d6 weapon is a weapon that adds +2d6 to damage.

You said the barbarian in my example (that I gave no items to had +1 weapon over your build and later only +1D10. Now since I didn’t give any items and was useing d12 weapons still none of that makes sense

 

[Mort]

I wanted to come back to this for a moment. I think you are missing the forest for the trees. If I'm wanting people that don't understand the power of feats to get a grasp on them, I don't compare a character with feats to a character with different feats. I compare a character with feats to a character without feats (or at least without offensive ones).

When doing that you find that you would need approximately a +2d6 weapon to compare.

All your comparisons and criticisms seem to be trying to compare a feated character to another feated character - which really misses the point of what I'm showing here.

You're not just comparing feat to "no feat" though. You're comparing IMO the one truly overpowered feat (I don't consider GWM overpowered btw) AND another feat it pairs extremely well with AND a maneuver that goes perfectly with it - to no feat. That's a lot. It's certainly not a reason to ban feats in general (as a different poster suggested).

To which - ok it's potent IF you consider DPR top priority. My group's fighter went the defense route (protection style, sentinel) and hasn't been the least bit disappointed.

 

[FrogReaver]

You said the barbarian in my example (that I gave no items to had +1 weapon over your build and later only +1D10. Now since I didn’t give any items and was useing d12 weapons still none of that makes sense

I took your barbarian with his 1d12 great axe. I compared him at level 5 and level 8 with the Varaint Human+SS+CE+Precision Attack character I am looking at. He did lower damage at those levels. I went in and added magical weapons to him and redid the comparison to see where they would roughly even out. At level 5 giving the barbarian a +1 weapon evened out the damage between the characers. At level 8 giving him a +1d10 weapon evened out the damage. I'm not sure what doesn't make sense about that.

For a better explanation: See @Cap'n Kobold answer below

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Because when you take the jargon out we are talking about optimizing damage and accuracy.

Edit: In fact I will take this 1 step further... I am a DM that worries about Optimization but I don’t worry about feats. So I am your target audience. Tell me in plain English why I should worry about feats in general or the -5 to hit + 10 feats in particular.

OK. Since Froggie is disinclined to help out, this is a quick explanation of what is going on:

They are talking about a specific optimised Fighter build, designed to max out damage.
The Fighter is a Battlemaster (BM) with the Precision Attack maneuver. This allows you to roll a superiority die and add it to an attack roll, increasing your chance to land a hit. The fighter also has the Archery style which grants a +2 to hit with ranged weapons.
The character has two feats, one from variant Human race and one from level 4.
Crossbow Expert (CBE) The important bit here is that when using a hand crossbow, the character gets an extra attack as a bonus action. (Also useful is the ability to carry on using the crossbow in melee.)
Sharpshooter (SS) The most important part of this feat for the build is the ability to take a -5 to hit to get a +10 to damage on an attack.

So; basically this build is designed to get the lots of attacks (from CBE), all with a +10 damage (from SS), while using the Archery fighting style and the Precision Attack maneuver to mitigate the -5 to hit from SS.

Why level 4?
This is not only the first point at which this build gets all of its functions, it is also the point at which the difference is greatest. Level 3 and the build would be missing one of the necessary feats. Level 5 and the build would no longer be getting twice as many attacks as the comparison example. It would only get 3 compared to 2.

Basically Frogreaver ran the numbers comparing a level 4 fighter with this build with a level 4 Sword-and-Shield fighter who had just picked up +2 Strength at level 4. They worked out that in order to bring the featless fighter up to the level of the optimised handcrossbow fighter, you would have to give the featless fighter a longsword that did an extra 2d6 damage. (For example a Flametongue weapon).

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Why are you trying to force the comparison with greatsword fighter when I started with sword and shield? Maybe we should start there?

Sword and Shield at least has significantly higher AC to offset the benefits of 120 ft range. Which is the reason I chose sword and shield. It's at least arguable that +2 AC and OA's is worth trading for 120ft range.

Greatsword would actually need to do more damage than the SS + CBE + Precision fighter to be comparable - so that the range component is compensated for.

Presumably the Sword-and-board featless fighter comparison had Duellist Fighting style?

That makes for a reasonable comparison example since without the feats to back it up, longsword + 2 damage isn't too far off greatsword + GWF damage. While still allowing the shield as a rough equivalent to the ranged capability of the feats + optimised fighter.

 

[FrogReaver]

You're not just comparing feat to "no feat" though. You're comparing IMO the one truly overpowered feat (I don't consider GWM overpowered btw) AND another feat it pairs extremely well with AND a maneuver that goes perfectly with it - to no feat and equivalent maneuvers and +2 Str/Dex (till 20 max). That's a lot. It's certainly not a reason to ban feats in general (as a different poster suggested).

Small correction made above.

I would say this particular combo does alot of damage. However, I would say that other combinations relying on allies casting buffs like bless also enable the same combo even without precision attack. That to me says the high damage really stems from sharpshooter as most all those other buffs and combinations are mostly fine without it. That said, all this is assuming you consider that the fighter being the damage king is an issue in the first place. It's arguable that he needs the higher damage to really be balanced with other classes. So I personally I'm not trying to make the claim it needs removed - just that we need to understand just how much damage this is actually doing - especially compared to classes that don't use feats for damage.

To which - ok it's potent IF you consider DPR top priority. My group's fighter went the defense route (protection style, sentinel) and hasn't been the least bit disappointed.

5e is very forgiving. You don't need optimal builds to perform well. But when you have an optimized build in with a bunch of non-optimized builds it's very noticeable.

 

[FrogReaver]

OK. Since Froggie is disinclined to help out, this is a quick explanation of what is going on:

They are talking about a specific optimised Fighter build, designed to max out damage.
The Fighter is a Battlemaster (BM) with the Precision Attack maneuver. This allows you to roll a superiority die and add it to an attack roll, increasing your chance to land a hit. The fighter also has the Archery style which grants a +2 to hit with ranged weapons.
The character has two feats, one from variant Human race and one from level 4.
Crossbow Expert (CBE) The important bit here is that when using a hand crossbow, the character gets an extra attack as a bonus action. (Also useful is the ability to carry on using the crossbow in melee.)
Sharpshooter (SS) The most important part of this feat for the build is the ability to take a -5 to hit to get a +10 to damage on an attack.

So; basically this build is designed to get the lots of attacks (from CBE), all with a +10 damage (from SS), while using the Archery fighting style and the Precision Attack maneuver to mitigate the -5 to hit from SS.

Why level 4?
This is not only the first point at which this build gets all of its functions, it is also the point at which the difference is greatest. Level 3 and the build would be missing one of the necessary feats. Level 5 and the build would no longer be getting twice as many attacks as the comparison example. It would only get 3 compared to 2.

Basically Frogreaver ran the numbers comparing a level 4 fighter with this build with a level 4 Sword-and-Shield fighter who had just picked up +2 Strength at level 4. They worked out that in order to bring the featless fighter up to the level of the optimised handcrossbow fighter, you would have to give the featless fighter a longsword that did an extra 2d6 damage. (For example a Flametongue weapon).

Good explanation. One addition though. Even at level 5-11 the extra 2d6 damage weapon held pretty steady as what was needed to compensate. The proficiency increasing accuracy actually tends to help out the SS build more as adding +5% to lower accuracy numbers is a bigger relative boost.