D&D and the rising pandemic

Zardnaar

Legend
We don't think we have a single blanket law on the matter.

There are cases where a guardian who refuses to allow a child to be treated may be considered abusing the child, and have the choice taken from them.

Ah. They can change it here with an act of parliment. That only requires a simple majority in parliment.

They've also decleared an emergency using some law from 1956 but it's never been tested.

There's talk of making disinformation illegal but once again that's a violation of that act.

Election next month, the odds of the opposition winning is 0.1% apparently and Jacinda is the most popular PM ever.

She's on track to win an outright majority of the popular vote (hasn't happened since 1951). She'll have a mandate to basically do whatever the hell she wants.
 

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The ADA is designed to let the differently abled individuals get about their lives independently, including mandates for things like wheelchair accessibility. Furthermore, the ADA has particular clauses that say it does not supersede regulations designed to inhibit the spread of disease. IOW, by its own terms, It doesn’t apply at all.

"Nothing in this subchapter shall require an entity to permit an individual to participate in or benefit from the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages and accommodations of such entity where such individual poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others. The term "direct threat" means a significant risk to the health or safety of others that cannot be eliminated by a modification of policies, practices, or procedures or by the provision of auxiliary aids or services."

First, just as with our discussion of "immanence" earlier, there is not a clear ruling that an asymptomatic person would constitute a "direct threat". You and I both think they should, but that has never been legally defined or ruled on. It's not that I'm saying you're wrong, I'm just saying it's an opinion we both share, and I don't trust the rest of the world to agree with us.

Second, the hypothetical store/service/place could theoretically provide a number of auxiliary aids and services to eliminate the risk. A greater degree of distancing, providing an alternate barrier, etc. What you just quoted is exactly why the store can't simply tell a person to wear a mask or leave (without offering alternatives; if they claim they have a disability; insert qualifier here).

If you’re making this legal claim, you have to provide evidence of it. You could refuse to provide such evidence at the store, but that means we go back to the default setting of private property: they don’t have to let you in.

I'm not disagreeing with you about facts on this, I'm disagreeing with the process. A store can't ask for proof of a disability. Police can't force you to give proof of a disability. A police officer won't remove someone from private property without a complaint from the store.

So, if a person refuses to wear mask but is otherwise well behaved, what happens? A store has to follow strict guidelines on what questions they're allowed to ask, offer alternatives, and then ask them to leave. If they ask the wrong questions they can get sued. If they believe the person is lying about a disability, they can kick them out anyway. But if that person is telling the truth, they can be sued. If that person is lying, the store can be sued anyway, and the store will have to wait until the case goes to court to find out if their suspicions about lying are correct. Or, the minimum wage employee can just shrug and walk away. I think that's why you only hear about cases of people being arrested for disorderly or drunken conduct. People who refuse to wear masks but otherwise control themselves can skirt the law with near zero risk of being called out for it.

This discussion reminds me of a joke: I was standing at a crosswalk one day with another man. My light tuned green, but cars kept coming so I couldn't cross. The man say to me "You know, you can start walking. The law says they have to stop.". I say "The law won't protect me if they don't".

Back in the 70s (as I recall) a different kind of masking order was being challenged on religious grounds. A particular (lucative and highly desired) job required a mask to protect the employees. Some employees who wanted the jobs had religious practices that prevented them from cutting their facial hair, and facial hair compromised the effectiveness of the masks. The employees lost. Even a claim of religious discrimination was insufficient to defeat the masking requirement.

Employer/employee relationship, not a business/customer one. Where the risks were more clearly defined and no possible safety workarounds were identified. And, since it was religious and not a disability, the ADA didn't apply.
 



Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
First, just as with our discussion of "immanence" earlier, there is not a clear ruling that an asymptomatic person would constitute a "direct threat". You and I both think they should, but that has never been legally defined or ruled on. It's not that I'm saying you're wrong, I'm just saying it's an opinion we both share, and I don't trust the rest of the world to agree with us.

In all likelihood, there isn’t going to be a new ruling on “immanence”- that ship sailed with the declaration of epidemic/pandemic in the context of this particular disease. Asymptomatic transmission of C19 is a major known disease vector- that fact won’t be lost on any judge.

Second, the hypothetical store/service/place could theoretically provide a number of auxiliary aids and services to eliminate the risk. A greater degree of distancing, providing an alternate barrier, etc. What you just quoted is exactly why the store can't simply tell a person to wear a mask or leave (without offering alternatives; if they claim they have a disability; insert qualifier here).

I think you’re misunderstanding the dynamics of what’s going on.

First, the laws of private property- the first of which is the right of exclusion- means precisely that a store can have a dress code that bars entry to those who don’t comply with it. If they make a mask part of their terms and conditions of entry, they don’t have to let you in. If you claim a disability that would grant you an exception, they STILL don’t have to let you in as long as they have other “reasonable accommodations” such as online shopping, a personal shopper to do your shopping for you, curbside service, etc. Thing is, a “reasonable accommodation” isn’t necessarily the accommodation you want. They still don’t have to let you in.

Second, if they’re a private club- the aforementioned Sam’s and Costcos of the world- the ADA has less power over them. And they can simply revoke your membership (for any reason as long as it isn’t an illegal one or disallowed by the membership agreement).

Third, their position is further reinforced by governmental masking orders and other public health regs, which have greater legal force historically than things like the ADA.

I'm not disagreeing with you about facts on this, I'm disagreeing with the process. A store can't ask for proof of a disability. Police can't force you to give proof of a disability. A police officer won't remove someone from private property without a complaint from the store.

As previously stated, public health regulations are the ones with the greater force of law behind them. As noted in the brief Cadence linked to: “Based upon the CDC guidance, a business or government agency may require customers to wear a face mask to limit the spread of COVID-19. “

The ADA & HIPPA statutes and case law carve out “need to know” exceptions on inquiries into a person’s medical history. Since businesses are the metaphorical front line of enforcing those orders, their need to know who needs accommodation means that you can be asked if your anti-mask rationale has an underlying medical reason in order to enforce said orders. But as noted, even if you have such a reason, they don’t have to permit you entry. In fact, in places where the masking orders are strongest, they may not legally be permitted to do so.

So, if a person refuses to wear mask but is otherwise well behaved, what happens? A store has to follow strict guidelines on what questions they're allowed to ask, offer alternatives, and then ask them to leave. If they ask the wrong questions they can get sued.

While that’s true, such a suit is unlikely to succeed under current conditions, e.g. the declaration of pandemic. Defending the suit would not be a trivial cost, but the odds of successful defense would be virtually assured, given the “need to know” exception and government orders in place. Hell, there’s even a chance a court would toss the lawsuit as frivolous.

If they believe the person is lying about a disability, they can kick them out anyway. But if that person is telling the truth, they can be sued.

Same as above.

If that person is lying, the store can be sued anyway, and the store will have to wait until the case goes to court to find out if their suspicions about lying are correct. Or, the minimum wage employee can just shrug and walk away. I think that's why you only hear about cases of people being arrested for disorderly or drunken conduct. People who refuse to wear masks but otherwise control themselves can skirt the law with near zero risk of being called out for it.

Can? Sometimes. But it’s very fact dependent.

Depends on how stores choose to enforce policy. There’s numerous videos of otherwise orderly anti-maskers being denied entry or escorted out from stores around the USA. My aunt works in a private retail club where even peaceful anti-maskers have had their memberships revoked...along with everyone else on the account.

Employer/employee relationship, not a business/customer one. Where the risks were more clearly defined and no possible safety workarounds were identified. And, since it was religious and not a disability, the ADA didn't apply.



Where the standard of duty was higher, and the claim was based on a strongly defended constitutional right. IOW, the company had to meet a higher level of justification for their denial than would a company trying to enforce a masking order based on their dress code and/or a government masking order.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Not sure how it works in the USA but here our Bill if Rights Act 1990 specifically gives you the right to refuse treatment.
So you say failing to provide for your kids healthcare cannot result in them taken away? It sure can here. Refusing treatment for treatable illnesses for your child on many things can result in you losing custody of them as a repercussion if they are still alive or jail when they arent.

I have heard some arguing that many poor people aware of that implicit possibility is why so few are anti vaxxers and that it is all privileged karen's and kens who anti-vaxx.
 

I think you’re misunderstanding the dynamics of what’s going on.

...which have greater legal force historically...
...
While that’s true, such a suit is unlikely to succeed ...
...
Can? Sometimes. But it’s very fact dependent.
...
Depends on how...

I think you're misunderstanding the difference between understanding and agreeing. I understand the points you are making. I simply don't agree with your faith that things will turn out the way they're supposed to. I cite the case of Murphy v. 2020 as evidence.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
So you say failing to provide for your kids healthcare cannot result in them taken away? It sure can here. Refusing treatment for treatable illnesses for your child on many things can result in you losing custody of them as a repercussion if they are still alive or jail when they arent.

I have heard some arguing that many poor people aware of that implicit possibility is why so few are anti vaxxers and that it is all privileged karen's and kens who anti-vaxx.

If you're outright neglecting kids then yes social services can intervene.

Refusing a vaccine doesn't fall under that.

It gets murky with say parents refusing treatment for kids. There are laws but I'm not a lawyer.

NZ judges fall a bit more in the spirit of the law than the letter though.

For example the mandatory qurantine isn't strictly mandatory as they can't enforce it as such. They can at the border.

There's an anti mask/restrictions protest planned for tomorrow. People are like why are the cops not stopping it since it's going to violate the 100 person gathering limit.

The cops did nothing when BLM protested during lockdown either breaking the lockdown rules.


Parts 11, 15,16.

As written the cops can't really enforce much.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
In all likelihood, there isn’t going to be a new ruling on “immanence”- that ship sailed with the declaration of epidemic/pandemic in the context of this particular disease. Asymptomatic transmission of C19 is a major known disease vector- that fact won’t be lost on any judge.

I would like to believe so, but the Wisconsin Supreme Court keeps disabusing me of that notion. Even now, while we're seeing record levels of positive tests (for WI) and the UW-Madison is quarantining whole dorms with thousands of students, they slapped a temporary injunction on Dane County's declaration that schools have to use distance learning for grades 3-12. While it might make sense to review the county's powers over schools in the county from a legal sense, the temporary injunction is going to allow schools to bring kids of all levels back for face-to-face learning. A smarter move, one that recognized asymptomatic transmission is a major vector, would have left the order in place so as to not let the horse out of the barn, so to speak.
Seriously, I can't underline strenuously enough how much judicial partisanship/politicking can derange their decisions.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
The Make Aotearoa Great Again (MAGA) crowd out in Auckland.

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Time to turn in my Kiwis can't be this stupid card. They're even using American symbols lol.

One of the nutjob parties waving their signs around. Sub 1% doesn't get you into parliment even with proportional representation.

Wonder if bulldozing Auckland into the Hauraki Gulf is a good idea?
 

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