except when the spell ends or his allies can kill you, he can kill you, he will remember that he was controlled, his allies can dispel him. Well, can it work? Yes, you have a chance to fail and be dead next round.
You don't go around controlling people with impunity.
Or cast Mind Spike without starting a fight.
Did you notice the "small" difference?
I'll give you an example. "Your party's mission is to eliminate a nobleman from city x".
1) Kill him with an empowered fireball inside the city.
2) Control your bodyguard to kill him while he sleeps.
3) Control the Nobleman to ask the bodyguards to stop protecting him.
4) Kill him with Subtle Mind Spike
No, the sorcerer is not just a blaster.
With the new rule. The sorcerer just take a long rest and get the right spell for that mission. That will help a lot.
I have no idea how you got that from this thread. That isn't even what we're talking about. We are talking about the ability to swap spells quicker, with a wider array of swiss army knife type spells to do that with. Spells which most other classes don't get (except the sorcerer, who never took them before because they were situational), and which are niche spells most easily accessible by swapping. Which IS in fact a big part of the Wizard shtick.
Now, the sorcerer can do that better than the wizard, for a lot of those spells. Need a Disguise Self spell for a plan the PCs come up with? Sorcerer can do that in 8 hours. Wizard better have it already in their spellbook or else they are out of luck.
Plan calls for dropping a Darkness spell on the guards before you run by? Sorcerer can prep that easier now.
Plan for a scout PC to carry stacked enhancements to their sneak check to spy out the dragon lair which includes an Enhance Ability? Sorcerer can do that better now.
Have a door you need to open and the rogue cannot pick the lock? Sorcerer can prepare Knock in 8 hours easier than the Wizard, who again will need it in their spellbook.
And on and on with the utility spells the Sorcerer was likely never getting access to which they can now access in 8 hours. Spider Climb, Suggestion, Clairvoyance, Dispel Magic, Fly, Gaseous Form, Tongues, etc.. All these great situational spells which before they likely never used, they now easily can temporarily gain. They're now the swiss army knife caster for any special occasion, only better at it because they get all 133 of those spells automatically to the Wizards 44 - taking the Wizard's shtick.
That Schtick belongs to prepared casters, it always has.
Yep, but sorcerers have metamagic. That is the balancing factor for their lack of spell selection (which, by FAR, is second ONLY to wizards...) Here is the breakdown:
So, the argument that Sorcerer's have a short spell list is crap. Sure, they have few known spells, but again the balance is metamagic. And the game already allows them to swap out bad spell choices when they level.
But metamagic never lets you solve a problem with fireball that was not already solvable with Fireball. So metamagic does not increase their ability to solve problems at all.
* FIFTH LEVEL SPELLS *
Bigby's Hand
Cone of Cold
Contact Other Plane (R)
Far Step
Hold Monster
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Seeming
Telekinesis
Teleportation Circle
Wall of Force
Wall of Light
Wall of Stone
This shows the number of Wizard spells, Sorcerer spells, and my PC's spells in her spellbook of spell levels 1 -6.
As you can see, the Sorcerer spell list has more spells than my PC at every level. If you review my spellbook, I don't think it is skimpy by any means.
So, while Wizard spell lists are longer, Wizards don't have that many compared to the full list of Sorcerers IME.
Granted, I can prepared 16 spells per day (INT 18), but a level 12 Sorcerer would have 12 known--only 4 less. But it would also have 3 metamagic options.
Overall, a much greater spell selection for the Sorcerer and 3 metamagics vs. my smaller spell selection but 4 more I can choose from.
Sorry, but give a Sorcerer Ritual Caster and they really are better casters overall that Wizards IMO. YMMV of course.
So, just from memory, I see 23 spells that the wizard has that the Sorcerer cannot access. No matter what.
How can you be obsolete when a random selection of spells include nearly a third unique, uncopyable spells?
Also, while the Sorcerer has over 100 spells "potentially" available they have 12 in actuality. And your wizard has 16.... plus the 16 ritual spells, for 32 spells available during the day. That is Twenty spells of difference, not 4.
Makes a big difference to count those rituals in. I'll also tag @Hohige , since that would be 19 spells then.
I saw someone mention this, but I think it needs extra attention. The situation we are talking about is the following.
1) There is a problem that can be solved by magic, and only magic
2) The specific magic spell needed is one the Sorcerer Spell list
3) The problem has at least a 24 hour wait until it needs to be solved. Either because you learned about it ahead of time (Such as knowing that you are going to go into the forest of Friendly Goblins and need comprehend languages) or because it is not urgent and can wait 24 hours after discovery.
This is where this "OP sorcerers are the most versatile thing ever" actually comes into play. And remember, by level 5, a Sorcerer has 6 spells. Total. That is it. You can point to 75 spells they could potentially have learned, but primed and ready to go? They have 6. Which means comprehend languages needs to replace 17% of their spellcasting potential for the day.
A sixth level wizard has 16 spells in their book. So, Comprehend languages as one of their rituals they don't need to prepare is 6% of their spell casting knowledge, and they still have their full contingent of spells per day.
This is such a small sliver of the potential aspects of the adventuring day. And, also, yes a Sorcerer might be spend a whole week changing every single spell they have!!
Of course, this ignores the fact that A) They could have chosen those spells anyways to begin with. B) They were already incentivized to pick all of the best spells anyways, so they are likely to be swapping them for more niche spells. and C) You as the DM gave them a week to prepare for whatever challenge comes along.
Honestly. With the time delay and limitations on the spells, I can't imagine more than one or two times this comes up. Yes, the wizard might not feel special for going on a quest to find a spell, to put it in their book, to come back, and solve this specific magical problem you will be encountering. Only if the Sorcerer is int he party to. And only if they have access to the spell on their list.
Now, the sorcerer can do that better than the wizard, for a lot of those spells. Need a Disguise Self spell for a plan the PCs come up with? Sorcerer can do that in 8 hours. Wizard better have it already in their spellbook or else they are out of luck.
Plan calls for dropping a Darkness spell on the guards before you run by? Sorcerer can prep that easier now.
Plan for a scout PC to carry stacked enhancements to their sneak check to spy out the dragon lair which includes an Enhance Ability? Sorcerer can do that better now.
Have a door you need to open and the rogue cannot pick the lock? Sorcerer can prepare Knock in 8 hours easier than the Wizard, who again will need it in their spellbook.
Mistwell, all of these examples involve prior scouting, encountering a problem and then being able to take a Long Rest to swap out spells.
That is not always possible. If the mechanical dragon is enroute to burn Ten Towns, the PCs don't have time to Rest.
As it stands now, the Sorcerer or Bard in the examples you gave are only able to help out, if they happened to have the correct spell. Otherwise the player is helpless until they gain a level and can swap spells.
If you only play only once a month, that could be a really long time to expect a player to do nothing.
Games involving a lot of downtime, or time to plan and prep, favor Wizards as is.
As a DM and a player, I am happy to have anything added that helps groups overcome challenges. The sorcerer can now call upon their dragon ancestors and learn the magic words of opening to the sealed portal...cool!
Now I as a DM don't have to put in 13 scrolls of Knock in the dungeon, just in case the players don't have the spell.
If I am a Wizard PC....well frankly I would have Knock...but even if I didn't I would be happy that we don't now have to go back to town so I can add the spell to my spellbook.
Again, if your neighbor gets a raise, this does not make you poorer, especially when they are in your D&D party.
DMs have complete control over this as well. If the party wizard routinely does not have a spell to fit the situation, then the DM is not giving out enough spells.
The official D&D adventures are terrible at this. The adventures almost never give out scrolls, and either allow almost zero access to enemy spell books...or offer access to all the spells in the PHB. My preference is give lots of scrolls....make the player agonize...."Do I use the scroll or scribe the spell into my Spellbook".
I do hear your points, Mistwell. My U/A feedback to WotC was to suggest giving the Wizard class a Mystic Incantation ability: each day the Wizard can prepare one additional spell that is not already in their spellbook. The Wizard cannot scribe the selected spell into their spellbook, whilst the spell in question is their selected Mystic Incantation.
With that the heavens are restored, and parity is preserved.
I think they shot themselves in the foot making the Wizards subclasses 'schools', and especially going through all of them right away instead of waiting until they had a stronger concept for like, a Necromancer specialist. I think the Abjurer and Diviner are the most interesting of the PHB Wizard subclass, from what I see, just reading it.
I feel like they missed a trick by not giving us an Archeologist Adventurer (Lore Hunter?) Wizard, like a mirror image of the Arcane Trickster. Instead of a rogue who learned Wizard Magic to be a better Rogue, it's a Wizard who learned Rogue tricks to be better at going into old ruins and finding the spells to add to their book.
Like, that Wizard could use INT when using Thieve's Tools or trying to find traps, maybe having expertise and some extra HP?
I think that the main point of disagreement here comes from the type of campaign we have. They seem to be vastly different so the impact of the ryle is not exactly the same for everyone.
If you don't play very high level and keep to low to mid levels the impact is a lot less impressive than when you get to 12+.
The rule is also very dependent in the rest rule you are using. The closer you are to the "standard" rest rule, the more impactful this rule is.
What we have here is a problem of perception. This rule is very impactful when standard rest and high level are combined. It gives a lot of versatility to any classes but the wizards that are left far behind in the dust making their own versatility useless. What is 44 spell known vs a full spell list? Nothing.
If you take into account the fact that around level 12 you have a feat to burn, the sorcerer will take ritual caster wizard and now have access to all wizards rituals fully achieving complete appropriation of what was the strong points going for the wizards.
When all that defines you is given to an other, how do you keep relevant? Simple, you don't. Now, not only can the sorcerer can do what the wizard do, but he does it better, albeit one rest at a time but in many campaigns it will not matter, it might in yours, but remember that you are not alone doing campaigns. In addition, the sorcerer keeps his metamagic to boot.
If the rule had been all spells can be changed in down time, it would have been way better.
I think that the main point of disagreement here comes from the type of campaign we have. They seem to be vastly different so the impact of the ryle is not exactly the same for everyone.
No, the problem is DMs who make obstacles that are designed to be conquered by single spells WHILE having adventures with no stakes.
If your puzzle can be solved by the sorcerer walking up to an obstacle, realizing that he need a specific spell to overcome it, leaving, resting, swapping spells and returning with the spell in hand...
Lol. I have more experience than to make stupid puzzle solvable by a little spell. But some other DMs might be in that case. A lot of the adventure you buy can be solved by spells. This is unfortunate but easy to work around.
In fact, I should be among those that welcome this rule as I rarely saw sorcerers at my at my table until I gave them their charisma bonus in sorcery points and spell known.
But contrary to a few poeple here, I always go for abusing new rules, classes and subclasses before making a judgement and I try it out in actual simulations and scenari we have already played previously to see if it is game changing, a balancing issue or complete garbage as it is the case in this this thread. That rule is much more disruptive than it appears in the first place. One thing is sure, that rule will not make it at my table.
