D&D 5E New class options in Tasha

[DND_Reborn]

Ok, for anyone who fails to see the potential this gives a Sorcerer (or other Known-Spell casters to a point), consider this...

A Sorcerer 5 with 6 known spells with just the PHB alone has 60+ spells to choose from for levels 1-3. With less than one week of long rests to prepare for different scenarios/adventures/challenges (not unreasonable unless you play time-crunch missions a lot, not common IME), you could do the following (and many more combinations...):

Defensive Build-Relying on Cantrips for Offense:

• Mage Armor
• Shield
• Blur
• Mirror Image
• Blink
• Lightning Bolt

Infiltration or Social Encounters:

• Charm Person
• Disguise Self
• Darkvision
• Invisibility
• Suggestion
• Gaseous Form

Exploration adventure:

• Feather Fall
• Detect Magic
• Enhance Ability
• Spider Climb
• Fly
• Water Breathing

Hold the Fort/ Repel Attackers (120-150 feet range, 90 feet for sleep)

• Fog Cloud
• Magic Missile
• Sleep
• Scorching Ray
• Fireball
• Sleet Storm

A Wizard 5 would have learned 14 spells minimum, maybe 20 by level 5 if the DM is nice at all. The above selections for Sorcerer shows 24 unique spells (no repeats). The Wizard has to pay for the extra spells as well, which to get the extra 10 for 24 total would cost about 1300 gp (a lot IME for level 5 PCs). And runs the risk of losing their spellbook and having to pay for a whole new one!

Sorcerers et. al don't have to worry about such things, of course. And don't forget the metamagics and other class features known-spell casters bring to the table.

So, given the above examples, which I came up with easily, how can you honestly tell me this feature doesn't make Sorcerers (and the others) more versatile than Wizards? Seriously. If you still think that, you're fooling yourself.

Unless you run time-sensitive adventures all the time, you could easily see a lot of such shenanigans.

 

[Azzy]

This is MY quote. Tell me how you equate what I wrote to:

"Where has anyone every made a claim which is comparable to "dying from drinking water"?

Because everything I said that you quoted is factual. If you play a Sorcerer you are accepting a harsh restriction of very limited known spells, which you agree to only being able to swap out when you level, in exchange for the power and versatility of metamagic. The restriction is in exchange for all the features Bards, Rangers (I agree with @Gladius Legis they should also have been prepared casters though), and Warlocks as well.

This rule was added because people who take longer to level than 5E was designed around and later regret a chosen spell for their known-caster PC whined about their decisions. Tough. It was part of the class from the beginning.

Allowing any known-spell caster unlimited access to their entire spell list does steal--even if only a little bit, I think potentially a lot myself--from the versatility Wizards are played for. Those classes get the spotlight for other reasons--reasons the Wizard can't do normally.

Sure, players might not abuse this rule, ask for extended downtime to get in long rests to swap out several spells, etc. but the feature opens the door for abuse and to take the spotlight off of the Wizard when otherwise it wouldn't.

So, since semi-spontaneous casting was added to the wizard in 5e, we can take that back, right? I mean, it was one of the restrictions of a wizard and that was what people signed up for, so why should wizards impinge of the mechanical theme of the spontaneous casting sorcerer (which also had its spell slots reduced in 5e in comparison to the wizard). I mean, good for the goose, good for the gander, right?

Will it be a big problem? Who knows? But obviously from the people expressing their views here there are enough people who won't adopt the rule, or will house-rule it to make it harder, etc. So, saying this is not an issue people might face is insulting--we see the possibility there, even if you and others don't.

Yes, everybody in this thread is attempting to prognosticate how this will actually play out at the table without actually having it played at the table yet. It's one thing to have concerns, but another to announce the wizard being obsolesced because of this change. The first is rational, the second is an emotional knee-jerk reaction without time for adequate reflection.

 

[DND_Reborn]

So, since semi-spontaneous casting was added to the wizard in 5e, we can take that back, right?

It wasn't. Prepared-spell casters, are by definition, not spontaneous (or semi-, yeah, I know where you're going with this).

At any rate, this isn't a new edition. It is a feature added to the current one which affects 4 classes to the detriment of 1.

I mean, how would Sorcerer's feel if suddenly Metamagic was a class feature for all the prepared-spell casters? Sure, it doesn't change the Sorcerer at all, except for the fact that the most compelling reason to play one now belongs to other classes. (FWIW, I think the other UA feats of this nature are also horrible.)

The first is rational, the second is an emotional knee-jerk reaction without time for adequate reflection.

When an issue is apparent, you don't need a lot of time for reflection. At least, many of us don't...

 

[Azzy]

It wasn't. Prepared-spell casters, are by definition, not spontaneous (or semi-, yeah, I know where you're going with this).

Yes, I meant that prepared casters no longer have to prepare each spell slot individually instead of being able cast any spell known... prepared. Which is a big step up and was one of the things that made sorcerers mechanically distinct from wizards in 3e.

At any rate, this isn't a new edition. It is a feature added to the current one which affects 4 classes to the detriment of 1.

Or is it? Is this, as some have suggested a stealth .5 edition? But does that even matter? If we're holding onto previous editions differences (like many of the people objecting to Spell Versatility are wont to do to suggest what the sorcerer's theme is), isn't this equally relevant? I mean, the wizard still stole one of the 3e sorcerer's main features (and there wasn't much else there). Being able to trade out a single prepared... known spell like a nefed cleric or druid is pretty small fries compared to that.

I mean, how would Sorcerer's feel if suddenly Metamagic was a class feature for all the prepared-spell casters? Sure, it doesn't change the Sorcerer at all, except for the fact that the most compelling reason to play one now belongs to other classes. (FWIW, I think the other UA feats of this nature are also horrible.)

You mean like some people on ENWorld have suggested in the past, a UA wizard subclass did, and a UA feat (that may also be in Tasha's) allows? I would feel like it's par for the course and that the wizard will consume Second Wind, Extra Attack (oh, wait, the Bladesinger already did that), Channel Divinity, Sneak Attack, Rage, Bardic Inspiration, and Wildshape soon thereafter.

When an issue is apparent, you don't need a lot of time for reflection. At least, many of us don't...

At least you're not arguing that it isn't emotional and knee-jerk. Sarcasm aside, sometimes what some people think is an "apparent" issue is just a change from the norm that isn't an issue at all—just different. That's why taking a step back, cooling off, and reflecting on the "issue" for an extended period of time is warranted.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Ok, for anyone who fails to see the potential this gives a Sorcerer (or other Known-Spell casters to a point), consider this...

A Sorcerer 5 with 6 known spells with just the PHB alone has 60+ spells to choose from for levels 1-3. With less than one week of long rests to prepare for different scenarios/adventures/challenges (not unreasonable unless you play time-crunch missions a lot, not common IME), you could do the following (and many more combinations...):

Defensive Build-Relying on Cantrips for Offense:

• Mage Armor
• Shield
• Blur
• Mirror Image
• Blink
• Lightning Bolt

Infiltration or Social Encounters:

• Charm Person
• Disguise Self
• Darkvision
• Invisibility
• Suggestion
• Gaseous Form

Exploration adventure:

• Feather Fall
• Detect Magic
• Enhance Ability
• Spider Climb
• Fly
• Water Breathing

Hold the Fort/ Repel Attackers (120-150 feet range, 90 feet for sleep)

• Fog Cloud
• Magic Missile
• Sleep
• Scorching Ray
• Fireball
• Sleet Storm

A Wizard 5 would have learned 14 spells minimum, maybe 20 by level 5 if the DM is nice at all. The above selections for Sorcerer shows 24 unique spells (no repeats). The Wizard has to pay for the extra spells as well, which to get the extra 10 for 24 total would cost about 1300 gp (a lot IME for level 5 PCs). And runs the risk of losing their spellbook and having to pay for a whole new one!

Sorcerers et. al don't have to worry about such things, of course. And don't forget the metamagics and other class features known-spell casters bring to the table.

So, given the above examples, which I came up with easily, how can you honestly tell me this feature doesn't make Sorcerers (and the others) more versatile than Wizards? Seriously. If you still think that, you're fooling yourself.

Unless you run time-sensitive adventures all the time, you could easily see a lot of such shenanigans.

Obviously this lets you change your load out to have different spells. But, you are missing the point that the sorcerer never had the option to really do this before.

Let us say that each of those represent what is needed to play that "archetype" Each sorcerer is a single archetype.

Wizard has 14 spells. They are at least two archetypes. Always.

And while you didn't copy any spells, you copied spells with similar purposes. So, while the sorcerer might have two attack spells, two defense spells and two utility spells. The Wizard can have Three Defense Spells, Five Attack spells and Six utility spells.

That is where you are missing our points. Yes, a sorcerer could go all in, and over the course of the week move into a completely different archetypical spell list. But, unless they are over-specializing like that, in terms of raw numbers of "I have a spell that does this role" they are behind. Always. Three spells is half their list. It is nearly a fifth of the wizard's list.

I see a sorcerer who might actually be able to participate as a magic user, instead of saying "well, I needed to survive in combat, so outside of that, I have no magic to help the party do anything. Call me when things need killing."

It wasn't. Prepared-spell casters, are by definition, not spontaneous (or semi-, yeah, I know where you're going with this).

At any rate, this isn't a new edition. It is a feature added to the current one which affects 4 classes to the detriment of 1.

I mean, how would Sorcerer's feel if suddenly Metamagic was a class feature for all the prepared-spell casters? Sure, it doesn't change the Sorcerer at all, except for the fact that the most compelling reason to play one now belongs to other classes. (FWIW, I think the other UA feats of this nature are also horrible.)

Probably the same way everyone else felt when it became a sorcerer exclusive ability. Since it originally wasn't.

You know where it is going, because it has been something said for a while. In 3.5 Sorcerers were the only ones who got to cast any spell, without having to pre-load their slots. That went away in 4e and stayed gone in 5e, removing the biggest advantage of the sorcerer.

The sorcerer didn't need magical training, so they had armor and better weapons. In 5e, that has now become that they have the same armor and weapons as the wizard

The sorcerer had better hit dice. Now they have the same as the wizard, who was actually buffed up, since they used to have a d4.


There is a solid point to be made that if you want to call up "But wizards of every edition have been the swiss army caster, with the most versatility" then we can pull up everything the sorcerer has lost over the editions, sometimes for no good reason.

 

[Vael]

snip

So, given the above examples, which I came up with easily, how can you honestly tell me this feature doesn't make Sorcerers (and the others) more versatile than Wizards? Seriously. If you still think that, you're fooling yourself.

Unless you run time-sensitive adventures all the time, you could easily see a lot of such shenanigans.

Because you are putting the cart before the horse. My experience is that any extended downtime where a Sorcerer could theoretically reconfigure their entire spell load out happens after the adventure, not before.

"Congratulations, you have defeated the Clan of the Pointed Stick, everyone level up and take a week of downtime."

NOT

"So, everyone has a week off. Meanwhile, Nialliv will hatch her plot to turn all of Waterdeep in sandwiches to feed her horde of mutants. Be sure to pack some rope or climbing spells, as she has put the princess into a tall tower."

And, I've yet to get a satisfactory answer to this list:

• Animate Dead
• Antimagic Field
• Bestow Curse
• Bigby's Hand
• Clone
• Contingency
• Control Weather
• Evard's Black Tentacles
• Fabricate
• Forcecage
• Glyph of Warding
• Grease
• Legend Lore
• Locate Object
• Magic Circle
• Magic Jar
• Melf's Acid Arrow
• Mind Blank
• Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
• Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
• Nondetection
• Nystul's Magic Aura
• Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
• Planar Binding
• Prismatic Wall
• Programmed Illusion
• Ray of Enfeeblement
• Remove Curse
• Rope Trick
• Scrying
• Sending
• Shapechange
• Tasha's Hideous Laughter
• Telepathy
• Vampiric Touch
• Wall of Force

Again, these are PHB spells that are on the generic Wizard list that don't show up on the Sorcerer's. They are not rituals, so you can't even snipe them with the Ritual Casting feat. Heck, most of divination spells that could theoretically guide the Sorcerer into making the "perfect spell load out" aren't even Sorcerer spells.

So, no, I don't buy that every campaign is about to ruined by prescient Kwisatz Haderach Sorcerers with their perfect knowledge of what spells they need to have already known.

 

[Aldarc]

Ok, for anyone who fails to see the potential this gives a Sorcerer (or other Known-Spell casters to a point), consider this...

So, given the above examples, which I came up with easily, how can you honestly tell me this feature doesn't make Sorcerers (and the others) more versatile than Wizards? Seriously. If you still think that, you're fooling yourself.

Call me when the wizard apocalypse actually happens.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Because you are putting the cart before the horse. My experience is that any extended downtime where a Sorcerer could theoretically reconfigure their entire spell load out happens after the adventure, not before.

"Congratulations, you have defeated the Clan of the Pointed Stick, everyone level up and take a week of downtime."

Of course, this happens, but often the character do know what they are heading into:

• You are infiltrating X stronghold or dungeon.
• Lord Y wants you to explore region Z.
• Army of ABC is heading towards castle D and will be here in a week. You must defend it.
• Etc.

For every adventure they stumble upon, there are just as many (if not more IME) they have an idea of what they are heading into, and don't need Divination magic to see what most likely lies ahead.

And, I've yet to get a satisfactory answer to this list:

You know some of the spells on your list are available to other classes (such as Locate Object), so this is a better list IMO:

• Grease
• Arcane Lock
• Melf’s Acid Arrow
• Nystul’s Magic Aura
• Rope Trick
• Tiny Servant
• Wall of Sand
• Arcane Eye
• Evard’s Black Tentacles
• Fabricate
• Fire Shield
• Leomund’s Secret Chest
• Mordenkainen’s Faithful Hound
• Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctum
• Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere
• Phantasmal Killer
• Bigby’s Hand
• Passwall
• Wall of Force
• Contingency
• Create Homunculus
• Magic Jar
• Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere
• Tenser’s Transformation
• Wall of Ice
• Sequester
• Simulacrum
• Clone
• Illusory Dragon
• Maze
• Mighty Fortress
• Telepathy
• Invulnerability
• Prismatic Wall
• Weird

Those are the 35 spells that are exclusive to Wizard (at least in the books I have) that aren't rituals. Granted, lots of great spells there! But WoTC could distribute those among other classes and kill the Wizard easily enough (maybe in 6E?).

Of course, even every spell on this list can be picked by Bards via. Magical Secrets. So, while the Sorcerer alone might not cut it, combined with other factors--Wizards have nothing that is solely theirs. Before, Magical Secrets infringed on things a bit, but was extremely limited.

So, no, I don't buy that every campaign is about to ruined by prescient Kwisatz Haderach Sorcerers with their perfect knowledge of what spells they need to have already known.

Every campaign? Of course not. Given your posts yours probably won't be hurt at all. Neither will @Aldarc I imagine. After all...

• Some groups have players who never really found Wizards to their liking anyway, so all this rule will do for them is make other casters even more appealing. I feel like a lot of the vocal opposition probably aren't frequent Wizard players anyway.
• Other groups have DMs which will throw their PCs into adventures all the time--so the periods of prep-time will not exist and known-spell casters won't have the chance to use this--or at least not abuse it.
• Still more groups might be in highly magical worlds with generous DMs who dish out spells scrolls, enemy spellbooks, and the gold needed to copy them.

But many groups IME have players who enjoy wizards more than other spellcasters, don't force the PCs into adventures and have adequate prep-time, and/or have game worlds where spell scrolls can't be picked up at every corner merchant's store. Such is my group. And so I see this rule as horrible and I believe other DMs will try it out only to discover it is more disruptive than they thought.

Quite simply, there are better ways of achieving the goal WotC set out to achieve by this feature, many of which have been outlined in this thread. Then again, if you also feel other infringing feats, such as the Metamagic UA feat, are good additions--this probably doesn't bother you, either.

 

[Helldritch]

In my experience the majority of wizard spell-switches after a rest were just one spell. Usually because of a particular plan the party comes up with regarding some upcoming challenge that they've gained knowledge about. It would be very very rare to see a bunch of spells switched. But maybe my experience differs from yours. Do you usually see wizards swapping a whole bunch of spells overnight very often?

If only you could come to my games. Spell swapping happens all the time with wizards. Usually at the beginning of an adventure when they get a better idea of what they will encounter. Spell swapping for reconaissance of a stronghold. Spell swapping for actually entering the stronghold and yaddi yadda. They are very careful.

 

[Weiley31]

Call me when the wizard apocalypse actually happens.

I thought that was Dark Sun?