D&D 5E Help me with this House Rule: Vitality Points & Staggered Condition [UPDATED]

[BookTenTiger]

This is a follow-up of another thread I posted a few weeks ago. I have "borrowed" some ideas from the posters in those threads; thank you so much to everyone who participated!

I want to introduce a House Rule into my 5e game that will change the effects of falling to 0 Hit Points. In reality, this is two House Rules: Vitality Points and the Staggered Condition.

I would love help with this House Rule! If you have ideas for ways it could be tweaked, balanced, or changed, please let me know. Please do not post if you just want to say "I would never do this at my table."

Purpose: The purpose of the Vitality Points & Staggered Condition House Rule is to change the way gameplay occurs at 0 Hit Points. I do not like the image of characters falling unconscious and then popping back up during combat, and I do not like the way players of unconscious characters have to sit around while everyone else plays. Through these house rules, I am hoping to keep combat engaging even at 0 Hit Points, as well as create long-term consequences for falling to 0 Hit Points. Finally, I want to encourage downtime between adventures.

Vitality Points (UPDATE: See Wound Points below, Post #16).
A character's Vitality Points represent their life force. Whereas Hit Points may still represent a character's ability to dodge, block, or avoid blows, Vitality Points represent just how many hits a character can take before dying. A character with Vitality Points is still alive; a character with 0 Vitality Points and 0 Hit Points is dead.

Starting VP: A new character starts with a number of Vitality Points equal to their level + Constitution Score. For example, a 1st Level Character with 11 Constitution will have 12 VP. A brand new 10th-Level Character with 18 Constitution will have 28 VP.

Gaining New VP: Each time a character gains a level, they gain 1 Vitality Point. If a character's Constitution Score is improved, such as through a Ability Score Increase or a magic item or effect, they gain the appropriate number of Vitality Points.

Losing VP: A character can lose Vitality Points in a number of ways:

• When a character receives a critical hit, they lose 1 VP.
• When a character is reduced to 0 Hit Points, they are staggered (see below), which includes immediately losing 1 VP.
• When a staggered character takes damage, they lose 1 VP. When a staggered character takes a critical hit, they lose 2 VP.
• When a character's Constitution Score is reduced, they lose the appropriate amount of VP.

0 VP: A character with 0 Vitality Points who is reduced to 0 Hit Points immediately dies.

Regaining VP: Characters regain Vitality Points during downtime. For each week of downtime, a character regains 1 Vitality Point. However, a character can never regain Vitality Points that would increase their Vitality Points to be greater than their Constitution Score. For example, an 8th-Level Character with 14 Constitution starts with 22 VP. If they are reduced to 10 VP, they may gain 4 VP during 4 weeks of downtime. They cannot exceed 14 VP (their Constitution Score) until they gain a new level.

Enemy VP: Enemy creatures have Vitality Points equal to their Hit Dice. Enemies reduced to 0 Hit Points are still defeated, no matter their number of remaining Vitality Points. However, Vitality Points could be used by DM's for enemies that return for multiple combats or storylines.

Staggered Condition
The staggered condition occurs when a character is reduced to 0 Hit Points. Rather than becoming unconscious, a character is instead staggered. A staggered character is on death's door, stumbling in and out of consciousness, gasping for breath, yet still standing and ready to defend their allies!

Staggered Effects: A character who is staggered suffers the following effects:

• The character immediately loses 1 Vitality Point.
• Any time the character takes damage, they lose 1 Vitality Point.
• Critical hits to a staggered character cause the character to lose 2 Vitality Points.
• Successful melee attacks against the character are treated as critical hits.
• A staggered character may take an action, a bonus action, or move on their turn, but may only do one of these. A staggered character may still take reactions.
• A staggered character cannot maintain Concentration on spells; they immediately lose Concentration on any spells already cast, and any new spells cast that require Concentration stop having effect at the end of the character's turn.

The staggered condition ends as soon as a character regains 1 Hit Point or is stabilized.

Stabilizing a Staggered Character: When a staggered character is stabilized, the following occurs:

• The character falls unconscious.
• The character retains 0 hit points, but is no longer subject to the staggered condition.
• When the unconscious character takes damage, they lose Vitality Points just as described in the staggered condition.

Okay, so there are my ideas. What do you think? Do you think these House Rules would help with my goals of keeping characters and players engaged in combat, even at 0 HP, but introduce long-term consequences for reaching 0 HP?

Thanks for any helpful ideas and feedback!

 

[Faolyn]

I like the Staggered condition, but I find the Vitality Points to be unwieldy.

Possibilities:

Change it as followed: if, while staggered, you're hit by a weapon attack that succeeds by 5 or more, it's treated as a critical hit.

if you're reduced to 0 hp but stabilized or brought to 1 hp or more, or if you take massive damage, you're staggered until you can complete a short or long rest, or you regain all of your hit points.

If you take damage from a critical hit, you are staggered until the start/end of your next turn.

 

[Rockyroad]

This is a follow-up of another thread I posted a few weeks ago. I have "borrowed" some ideas from the posters in those threads; thank you so much to everyone who participated!

I want to introduce a House Rule into my 5e game that will change the effects of falling to 0 Hit Points. In reality, this is two House Rules: Vitality Points and the Staggered Condition.

I would love help with this House Rule! If you have ideas for ways it could be tweaked, balanced, or changed, please let me know. Please do not post if you just want to say "I would never do this at my table."

Purpose: The purpose of the Vitality Points & Staggered Condition House Rule is to change the way gameplay occurs at 0 Hit Points. I do not like the image of characters falling unconscious and then popping back up during combat, and I do not like the way players of unconscious characters have to sit around while everyone else plays. Through these house rules, I am hoping to keep combat engaging even at 0 Hit Points, as well as create long-term consequences for falling to 0 Hit Points. Finally, I want to encourage downtime between adventures.

Vitality Points
A character's Vitality Points represent their life force. Whereas Hit Points may still represent a character's ability to dodge, block, or avoid blows, Vitality Points represent just how many hits a character can take before dying. A character with Vitality Points is still alive; a character with 0 Vitality Points and 0 Hit Points is dead.

Starting VP: A new character starts with a number of Vitality Points equal to their level + Constitution Score. For example, a 1st Level Character with 11 Constitution will have 12 VP. A brand new 10th-Level Character with 18 Constitution will have 28 VP.

Gaining New VP: Each time a character gains a level, they gain 1 Vitality Point. If a character's Constitution Score is improved, such as through a Ability Score Increase or a magic item or effect, they gain the appropriate number of Vitality Points.

Losing VP: A character can lose Vitality Points in a number of ways:

• When a character receives a critical hit, they lose 1 VP.
• When a character is reduced to 0 Hit Points, they are staggered (see below), which includes immediately losing 1 VP.
• When a staggered character takes damage, they lose 1 VP. When a staggered character takes a critical hit, they lose 2 VP.
• When a character's Constitution Score is reduced, they lose the appropriate amount of VP.

0 VP: A character with 0 Vitality Points who is reduced to 0 Hit Points immediately dies.

Regaining VP: Characters regain Vitality Points during downtime. For each week of downtime, a character regains 1 Vitality Point. However, a character can never regain Vitality Points that would increase their Vitality Points to be greater than their Constitution Score. For example, an 8th-Level Character with 14 Constitution starts with 22 VP. If they are reduced to 10 VP, they may gain 4 VP during 4 weeks of downtime. They cannot exceed 14 VP (their Constitution Score) until they gain a new level.

Enemy VP: Enemy creatures have Vitality Points equal to their Hit Dice. Enemies reduced to 0 Hit Points are still defeated, no matter their number of remaining Vitality Points. However, Vitality Points could be used by DM's for enemies that return for multiple combats or storylines.

Staggered Condition
The staggered condition occurs when a character is reduced to 0 Hit Points. Rather than becoming unconscious, a character is instead staggered. A staggered character is on death's door, stumbling in and out of consciousness, gasping for breath, yet still standing and ready to defend their allies!

Staggered Effects: A character who is staggered suffers the following effects:

• The character immediately loses 1 Vitality Point.
• Any time the character takes damage, they lose 1 Vitality Point.
• Critical hits to a staggered character cause the character to lose 2 Vitality Points.
• Successful melee attacks against the character are treated as critical hits.
• A staggered character may take an action, a bonus action, or move on their turn, but may only do one of these. A staggered character may still take reactions.
• A staggered character cannot maintain Concentration on spells; they immediately lose Concentration on any spells already cast, and any new spells cast that require Concentration stop having effect at the end of the character's turn.

The staggered condition ends as soon as a character regains 1 Hit Point or is stabilized.

Stabilizing a Staggered Character: When a staggered character is stabilized, the following occurs:

• The character falls unconscious.
• The character retains 0 hit points, but is no longer subject to the staggered condition.
• When the unconscious character takes damage, they lose Vitality Points just as described in the staggered condition.

Okay, so there are my ideas. What do you think? Do you think these House Rules would help with my goals of keeping characters and players engaged in combat, even at 0 HP, but introduce long-term consequences for reaching 0 HP?

Thanks for any helpful ideas and feedback!

I really like your concept. This is similar to the vitality system that was used in a game I was a player in. I think it was the UA vitality rules that we used. Ultimately though it became combersome to recalculate the max hp every time vitality dropped and recalculate hp when your Con dropped. Your vitality system seems to be easier to use.

I also really like your idea of staggered. I too don't like the idea of getting knocked unconscious then coming back up with a healing word and working at 100% effectiveness with the wack a mole phenomenon that you sometimes see. One solution I posed to my players is the idea of when getting dropped to 0 hp, you instead go to 1 hp but take a level of exhaustion. Every hit you take after that gives another level of exhaustion. Only after level 4 exhaustion do you go unconscious. This gives the player some time before getting knocked out to get themselves out of danger giving the player a little more agency. When you get knocked out, all you can do is make death saving throws while you wait for someone else to heal you. One may say that the player should have gotten themselves out of harm's way before going down to 0 hp, but sometimes you get hit with massive damage and you can't avoid getting knocked out. Getting knocked out should be something that happens just short of deaths door IMO. This mechanic is more simple than yours but at the same time more deadly and my players never went for it. Whenever I get a chance to play again, I might present your system to the players. It sounds intriguing and the players may be more agreeable to it.

 

[Imaculata]

It seems like an odd design choice to me, to give the players more VP as they level up. Players are already less likely to die at higher levels, due to their increase in hitpoints, abilities, and better equipment. If anything, I would think you would want the threat of death to be consistent at all levels. So why not give the players a number of VP equal to their constitution score, and be done with it?

I also find the rules regarding how many VP you lose under various conditions a bit unwieldy, and hard to remember. Why not treat them as the final hitpoints before death instead? Any damage you take when you are at 0 hp, reduces your VP by the amount of damage you received. If an attack would reduce a character to 0 hp, any left over damage would spill over into VP. Alternatively, if you want to be more forgiving, the NEXT time the character takes damage, they lose VP.

If a player were to lose only 1 VP per damage received, then even at constitution 12 a monster would still need to hit me 12 times before I actually die. The rule that all melee attacks count as critical hits, seems nonsensical to me. But even then they would need to hit me 6 times before I actually die. This rule would make players near invincible.

Also, monsters do not need VP. You are making the managing of combat a hassle for the DM. Plus, why would you not want monsters to die at 0 hp? It seems you realize that most monsters should die at 0 hp, but why even make exceptions? Rules should remain consistent. Either all foes use VP, or they don't. I vote, they don't. Never. Not even big bads, or reocurring villains.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think it's a good system!

Tell me if I got these wrong:

• death saves do not apply anymore
• vitality points are not regained by healing spells

If that's the case then I like it, but if you put back an option that e.g. each healing spell restores a VP then they would become redundant.

Some details I would consider tweaking:

1) one VP regained per week is way too slow

As much as your system might be tailored to your campaign pace, I don't believe you have such a slow pace that this healing rate can keep up with. The key is that rule where you lose a VP whenever suffering a critical hit, which are in most cases just a matter of luck i.e. an unavoidable 1/20 chance each time you are targeted by an attack. Do your PC get targeted less often than 20 times per week when on an active quest? Are your quests spaced enough to regain most VP between?

I would consider either regaining 1 VP per day OR remove the loss of VP for critical hits.

2) I don't actually see long term effects (other than having low VP to start with)

Here the possibilities are endless so I am not going to suggest anything specific, just noticing that once stabilized and then healed a PC is back to normal, just closer to being staggered again.

 

[Imaculata]

I think what you should be aiming for, is a system with high risk and high reward. Give the players a way to keep on fighting, even at 0 hp, but at the high risk of dying. Keep in mind that as per the core rules, the players should already be trying to prevent a situation where they end up at 0 hp. It should not be a situation that occurs often. -But, when it does, there should still be a very real risk of death. I think you are leaning too much in the favor of the players here, in a system that already favors them immensely.

I think adding -2 and -4 modifiers to your own house rules is not in line with 5e design philosophy. 5e attempts to do away with the math, and the various modifiers of earlier editions (like 3e), in favor of advantage and disadvantage. I think you should either do away with those modifiers entirely, or change those rules to something more simple that is more in line with how 5e rules work.

 

[dave2008]

This is similar to the Bloodied Hit Points (CHP) system we use. Though, like @Imaculata suggests, we don't increase BHP with level and we don't have the staggered condition. However, we have BHP reduced the same as HP. So if you take a hit to your BHP and from a sword, you lose 1d8+STR mod BHP, and you lose BHP on a critical hit (confirmed) or when your HP is 0.

I personally don't see the point in having VP damage be calculated differently than HP damage, but if it works for you - great.

 

[Imaculata]

I personally don't see the point in having VP damage be calculated differently than HP damage, but if it works for you - great.

Precisely. This is the sort of thing that makes rules harder to remember. It is better to stay consistent with existing rules, for ease of use.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Okay, so there are my ideas. What do you think? Do you think these House Rules would help with my goals of keeping characters and players engaged in combat, even at 0 HP, but introduce long-term consequences for reaching 0 HP?

Ok, I've seen (and written) many iterations of the Vitality-type of systems and never found them to work very well without a lot of extra rules, which you've also added. There is nothing bad about this, of course, but ultimately I've found such systems require more work and tweaking in other aspects of the game than any benefit they bring.

I can see how your concept has been inspired by others before you, and if you can get it to work to your satisfaction then well done! I don't see anything wrong with what you've done (not how I would do it, maybe, but nothing imbalanced or anything) but I know if I was a new player joining a table that used such a system, it would be a turn-off at this point--I just find such systems to cumbersome and fiddly to my liking.

Anyway, best of luck!

 

[BookTenTiger]

Thanks for the feedback everyone! I really appreciate you taking the time to read my ideas and write your thoughts.

Thinking about this idea further, I realize that I am essentially replacing Death Saving Throws with a countdown timer that gets closer to 0 and only resets once the adventure is over.

I still like the idea! I like the playstyle of characters getting to charge in and make mistakes at the start of an adventure, bit feel low on resources by the end.

I think this does make characters more difficult to kill, but it also makes me as a DM more comfortable targeting 0 HP characters in combat. It's just not fun (for me) when I have enemies target unconscious characters.

I agree that Vitality Points do not yet produce the effect I want... I think I will cut out the bonus from gaining a level, to simplify it. I want regaining VP to still be slow (I love it when lots of time progresses between adventures), but maybe 1/week is too slow. It also means that it takes longer for a big beefy barbarian to be back to "full health" than a wimpy 10 Con bard.

Some ideas for regaining VP could be...

• Con mod per week
• Regain 1/2 VP per week
• Regain VP = Proficiency Bonus or Level per week...

Let's see... If my goal is 1 - 4 weeks of downtime between adventures, and most characters have, say, 12 VP, then I would want them to recover 4 per week. Maybe that's it, just a flat 4?

As for VP for enemies, yeah I agree with just removing that. I threw it in there as a last-minute idea, and it doesn't really work.

Feel free to add more thoughts, I really enjoy what has been posted so far.