D&D 5E Help me with this House Rule: Vitality Points & Staggered Condition [UPDATED]

[Rockyroad]

One issue with your VP system (and the exhaustion mechanic I had proposed to my players) that was mentioned before is that it doesn't differentiate a 1 hp dart damage from a 25 hp damage from a fireball. The vitality system that was used in a game that I was a player in had it so that you lost 1 VP for every 10 hp damage taken, or something like that. It was a while ago so I don't remember exactly. I don't know if this is something that matters to you but from a narrative point of view, it doesn't make much sense that the dart would cause the same amount of vitality loss as the fireball. This may require adjustment of the number of VP.

 

[toucanbuzz]

I use a VP system, and while it can add a layer of strategy, I found too many rules could make it unwieldy, and some of my commentary is from actual play.

Starting VP: A new character starts with a number of Vitality Points equal to their level + Constitution Score. For example, a 1st Level Character with 11 Constitution will have 12 VP. A brand new 10th-Level Character with 18 Constitution will have 28 VP.

If VP represents actual damage the body can take, you're suggesting a 10th level character can get impaled by an orc's spear multiple times. When the UA discussed VP, it was heavily discouraged to have them scale like Hit Points. They'll get out of control and essentially operate as a second pool of hit points, doubling the hits one can take.

Losing VP: A character can lose Vitality Points in a number of ways:

• When a character receives a critical hit, they lose 1 VP.
• When a character is reduced to 0 Hit Points, they are staggered (see below), which includes immediately losing 1 VP.
• When a staggered character takes damage, they lose 1 VP. When a staggered character takes a critical hit, they lose 2 VP.
• When a character's Constitution Score is reduced, they lose the appropriate amount of VP.

If I am at 0 HP and get hit by Thor's Hammer for 1000 damage, I take 2 VP damage? At level 1, I can take it multiple times?

Weapon damage is being proportionately skewed, leading players facing hard-hitting monsters better off being "staggered" when they get hit (to absorb that 20 damage hit by only losing 2 VP), then getting a minor heal wherein the next hit is again soaked (due to all extra HP damage being discarded at 0 HP, barring an outright kill, which is very rare past 2nd level).

For example:

Under base rules, an orc might take 4 hits to outright kill a 1st level PC. That's 2 hits to drop him to 0hp, then 2 hits while dying to kill him off, assuming no healing.

Under this VP system, an orc now would need 7 hits to kill that 1st level PC. That's 2 hits to drop him to 0hp, then 5 more hits (assuming 11 VP) to actually kill him.

It only gets worse as you increase VPs, and the system can be abused. Because the damage doesn't matter, I'm better off taking that 20+ damage hit while Staggered, then getting a minor 1 point heal to get to positive HP, then soak up another 20+ damage hit (because at 0 HP, the excess damage is discarded, barring an outright kill, which is super rare past 2nd level).

Regaining VP: Characters regain Vitality Points during downtime. For each week of downtime, a character regains 1 Vitality Point. However, a character can never regain Vitality Points that would increase their Vitality Points to be greater than their Constitution Score. For example, an 8th-Level Character with 14 Constitution starts with 22 VP. If they are reduced to 10 VP, they may gain 4 VP during 4 weeks of downtime. They cannot exceed 14 VP (their Constitution Score) until they gain a new level.

Harsh if you have a large pool. If I'm a 20th level barbarian with 20 CON, I could be sidelined for 36 weeks or so? I could get that if there's a major surgery + rehab that keeps me limited, but since I can regain my HP in a day, I'm actually walking around just fine.

What about Regeneration, or a Heal spell? Is there a way to speed this up?

Enemy VP: Enemy creatures have Vitality Points equal to their Hit Dice. Enemies reduced to 0 Hit Points are still defeated, no matter their number of remaining Vitality Points. However, Vitality Points could be used by DM's for enemies that return for multiple combats or storylines.

I would avoid monsters having VP. This should be a player-only rule. If you want recurrent bad guys, simply have another reason (a contingency spell, a rescue force, escape route, potion of gaseous form, etc.)

Staggered Condition
The staggered condition occurs when a character is reduced to 0 Hit Points. Rather than becoming unconscious, a character is instead staggered. A staggered character is on death's door, stumbling in and out of consciousness, gasping for breath, yet still standing and ready to defend their allies!

But they're not on death's door, as above. One hit and I'm fine. Two hits and I'm fine. If I'm 10th level with 28 VP, 10 hits and I'm still fine. If you want this urgency, keep the pool unchanging. At low levels, 2 hits from most monsters, or a lucky crit, might end it, and at higher levels, one swipe of a giant's morning star will end it.

Do enemies control whether to knock a PC unconscious at 0 HP?

If so, they're better off taking a PC out of the battle by knocking them unconscious. If not, is this reserved for when they whittle VP down to 0?

• A staggered character may take an action, a bonus action, or move on their turn, but may only do one of these. A staggered character may still take reactions.
• A staggered character cannot maintain Concentration on spells; they immediately lose Concentration on any spells already cast, and any new spells cast that require Concentration stop having effect at the end of the character's turn.

The staggered condition ends as soon as a character regains 1 Hit Point or is stabilized.

I recommend making the condition suck. Everything the PC rolls could have disadvantage and enemies have advantage against all non-item abilities. Normally a PC is knocked out of a battle at 0 HP, and they should be operating at far less than optimal. However, your spellcasters or archers are still lobbing spells and arrows with unerring accuracy despite "stumbling in and out of consciousness."

Conclusion: The VP damage system doesn't make much sense. As recently posted, a 1 damage dagger hit counts the same as a 40 point bite of a T-Rex. Having it scale only makes the problem worse. I'd work on that.

 

[Faolyn]

Also, monsters do not need VP. You are making the managing of combat a hassle for the DM. Plus, why would you not want monsters to die at 0 hp?

Reoccurring villains.

Of course, there's several ways to do that without resorting to Vitality Points. The monster wasn't actually dead, the monster was raised from the dead by an ally, the monster is now undead, etc.

 

[DND_Reborn]

One issue with your VP system (and the exhaustion mechanic I had proposed to my players) that was mentioned before is that it doesn't differentiate a 1 hp dart damage from a 25 hp damage from a fireball. The vitality system that was used in a game that I was a player in had it so that you lost 1 VP for every 10 hp damage taken, or something like that. It was a while ago so I don't remember exactly. I don't know if this is something that matters to you but from a narrative point of view, it doesn't make much sense that the dart would cause the same amount of vitality loss as the fireball. This may require adjustment of the number of VP.

For these issues you can also introduce a Damage Threshold, where if the damage exceeds that number you lose VP in addition to HP (or if HP = 0, you lose even more VP?).

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I've had in mind, to avoid the yo-yo healing, to augment the power of healing, but make it harder to regain hp once at 0 hp. Called it Hardcore Mode.

- Death Saves: DC 10 or Half the damage that took you down to 0 hp or less. Same DC for medicine checks with a Healer's kit. A successful medicine check give 1 successful Death Save. The rest stays the same

- At 0 hp, you are dying. You cannot regain HP. You need to be stabilized before being able to regain hp.

- Add CON mod to all healing received from spells or features. Do not add CON to hp at level up. First level HP = CON score + 1 HD rolled.

- Spare the Dying: Give Advantage to the next Death Save of a dying creature.

- Rejuvenate: The target is stabilized and regain 1d8 hp at the start of its turn.

 

[BookTenTiger]

Okay, here's a new variation for the Vitality Points.

Wound Points

Purpose: Wound Points replace Death Saving Throws. Wound Points are used in conjunction with the Staggered Condition. Because staggered characters will continue to be the targets of attacks, the Wound Points system allows characters at 0 HP to take more hits, but still risk dying. The risk of dying due to Wound Points will increase over the course of an adventure.

Wound Points represent life-threatening injuries that would kill any ordinary person. Because Wound Points are an abstraction, a blow dealing 40 Hit Points of damage and a blow dealing 1 Hit Point of damage deal the same amount of Wound Points - a knife in the back can be just as dangerous as a tyrannosaurus's bite. However, note that this rule does not replace Instant Death. If a character at 0 Hit Points receives damage equal to their Hit Point Maximum, they will still die, no matter their Wound Points.

Receiving Wound Points: A character receives a Wound Point...

• when they are hit by a critical hit.
• when they enter the Staggered Condition.
• when they take damage while in the Staggered Condition.
• A character receives 2 Wound Points when hit by a critical hit while in the Staggered Condition.

Dying from Wounds: There are two ways for a character to die from Wound Points:

• When a character's Wound Points equal or exceed their Constitution Score, and they reach 0 Hit Points, they die.
• When a character's Wound Points equal double their Constitution Score, they die.

Healing Wound Points: Spells and other effects that heal Hit Points do not heal Wound Points. Instead, Wound Points heal over time. After a week of downtime, a character heals a number of wound points equal to 4 + Constitution Modifier. (For games without much downtime, this can be changed from a week of downtime to a day of rest.)

 

[DND_Reborn]

Sorry, @BookTenTiger, but I fail to see how any of this really makes any sense. With WP (Wound Points) equal to your CON score, it will take forever for a PC to die with each hit only doing 1 WP of damage.

Why would you want them to be able to take even more injuries when at 0 HP?

I guess I am just not seeing your goal, here.

 

[Imaculata]

This new rule still makes players near unkillable in a system that already is very forgiving. I also think it is a strange design decision to make damage from a dart equal to a bite from a t-rex when at 0 hp. In fact, a low level enemy with 2 attacks is more dangerous than a dragon's breath weapon with this system, because the damage amount has been made irrelevant; only the number of hits matter.

 

[BookTenTiger]

Sorry, @BookTenTiger, but I fail to see how any of this really makes any sense. With WP (Wound Points) equal to your CON score, it will take forever for a PC to die with each hit only doing 1 WP of damage.

Why would you want them to be able to take even more injuries when at 0 HP?

I guess I am just not seeing your goal, here.

This new rule still makes players near unkillable in a system that already is very forgiving. I also think it is a strange design decision to make damage from a dart equal to a bite from a t-rex when at 0 hp. In fact, a low level enemy with 2 attacks is more dangerous than a dragon's breath weapon with this system, because the damage amount has been made irrelevant; only the number of hits matter.

So two points:

The goal of these house rules is to change the part of combat where characters fall to 0 Hit Points and fall unconscious. As a DM, it doesn't feel like a good story (to me) to attack unconscious characters, so they are often ignored until they are popped up by a healing spell.

The idea of the Staggered Condition and Wound Points is to make 0 HP characters more active participants in combat, while still having consequences of falling to 0 HP.

One consequence I'm hoping for the Staggered Condition is that characters at 0 HP are targeted by more attacks. A Staggered Fighter poses a greater threat than an unconscious Fighter, so they will remain an active target of enemy attacks. I think this is more fun as both a player and a DM.

I could just keep Death Saving Throws and have characters roll as normal when Staggered. But if a 0 HP character is going to be the target of more attacks, I think having 3 chances to get hit before dying is going to be too deadly.

So the idea behind Wound Points or Vitality Points is to have a system that brings a character closer to death each time they reach 0 Hit Points. In this way, a character's risk of dying will increase as they progress in an adventure.

@Imaculata You are right that this rule would abstract hits even more at 0 HP. Remember though that damage and Hit Points are already heavily abstracted. In the image of Wound Points in my head, these are attacks that get through all the defenses and hit somewhere vital. Basically this creates two classes of damage at 0 HP: damage that creates one Wound Point, or damage that causes Instant Death. A goblin with a dagger and an orc with a greataxe will likely cause one Wound Point (two, actually, since they would be critical hits). A dragon's breath weapon is more likely to cause Instant Death. Also, a dragon's breath weapon usually causes half damage on a successful save, so in a way a breath weapon is more a guarantee of Wound Point than any.

Does that clarify my intention at all? With that in mind, how would you adjust the rules?

Con score may be too high, but honestly I'm not sure!

 

[DND_Reborn]

Ok, I am going to ignore the rest and tackle this directly:

Purpose: The purpose of the Vitality Points & Staggered Condition House Rule is to change the way gameplay occurs at 0 Hit Points. I do not like the image of characters falling unconscious and then popping back up during combat, and I do not like the way players of unconscious characters have to sit around while everyone else plays. Through these house rules, I am hoping to keep combat engaging even at 0 Hit Points, as well as create long-term consequences for falling to 0 Hit Points. Finally, I want to encourage downtime between adventures.

1. "I do not like the image of characters falling unconscious and then popping back up during combat"

Agreed. I hate this. So, you are making it harder for PCs to fall unconscious (and really, for them to die... feature or bug?). You introduce the Staggered Condition (I prefer the term Wounded or Fatigued, but that is just terminology so I stick with your Staggered) so PCs don't go unconscious. I do like a lot of the things in the condition, but I am going to try to get away from WP or tracking it.

When you are reduce to 0 HP, you become Staggered:

1. You can only take an action, a bonus action, or move on your turn. You can still take reactions (I prefer no reactions, but its your game).
2. You cannot maintain Concentration. Any spell or effect you create on your turn ends at the beginning of your next turn.
3. Any successful attack against you is a critical hit.
4. If you don't like Options A or B below, track total damage while Staggered. If your total damage equals your max HP, you die. (I sort of like this.) You are still tracking HP and damage, but not introducing a new mechanic such as vitality or wounds.
5. OPTION A: Each time your suffer damage, you must make a Concentration check or fall unconscious. (I would also require this on the hit that reduced you to 0 HP, personally.)
6. OPTION B: If you take damage from a single source that exceeds your CON score + your character level, you fall unconscious.
7. You could gain a level of exhaustion when you become Staggered. Any damage while Staggered results in another level of exhaustion.

#1-3 are the same as yours. #4 is one way to continue to track excessive damage. A dart of 1 point should not be the same as a bite for 40 points IMO and this is a way of continuing to track damage.

#5 and 6 are options if you want a way for a PC to still (finally) fall unconscious. I would use one or the other as (again, personally) I don't like the idea that a PC can automatically stay up until they simply drop dead. I don't mind if that could happen, just don't want it to be automatic. shrug

#7 bring in the exhaustion mechanic (my favorite ), and makes it so 5 hits of any nature while staggered will kill the PC.

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2. "I do not like the way players of unconscious characters have to sit around while everyone else plays."

Sure, it sucks, but there is a point where keeping players in the game versus having rules that still make sense should give the win to the rules IMO. Plus, it helps players learn to be a bit more cautious if they run in head first and fall unconscious a lot.

Anyway, Staggered can keep them in the game, but really should just encourage them to get out of the fight and get to safety.

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3. "keep combat engaging even at 0 Hit Points"

Again, Staggered can keep them involved.

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4. "create long-term consequences for falling to 0 Hit Points"

You can handle this in lots of ways:
1. Staggered Damage (if you track it) can heal more slowly.
2. Becoming Staggered could require a long rest (maybe up to a week!) before you can regain HP naturally.
3. Becoming Staggered could impose a Lingering Wound from the DMG.
4. If you use the exhaustion levels, those will need to be recovered as well.
Etc.

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5. "I want to encourage downtime between adventures."

Any of the longer recovery options will make it so there must be more downtime. But, frankly, downtime is totally up to the DM. If you want more downtime, have more before the next adventure unfolds....

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Con score may be too high, but honestly I'm not sure!

I would think so. Maybe CON modifier + proficiency bonus? So max would likely be 11 and at lower levels would still be 3-5 times you can go to 0 HP.