D&D 5E Could a Sorcerer with a 1 Wizard dip fulfill everything unique about a wizard?

[Flamestrike]

Maannn...even without the cheese, it's just

QUICKENED BLAST X 2
QUICKENED BLAST X 2
QUICKED FIREBALL + BLAST

over and over. It's like the A-10 warthog of character builds.

Quickened spell is 2 SP, so (action EB) and (bonus action QEB) burns two SP.

The above PC has used a third level slot and 6 SP in three rounds, in a single encounter.

Warlock 2/ Sorcerer 3 has what... 3 SP, 2 x 1sts (recharging on a short rest) and 4/2 long rest slots, and 2nd level spells known to get him through 6 or so encounters, with 2 short rests.

Id rather be playing either a straight Warlock 5 or Sorcerer 5. For starters its 3rd level slots.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Quickened spell is 2 SP, so (action EB) and (bonus action QEB) burns two SP.

The above PC has used a third level slot and 6 SP in three rounds, in a single encounter.

Warlock 2/ Sorcerer 3 has what... 3 SP, 2 x 1sts (recharging on a short rest) and 4/2 long rest slots, and 2nd level spells known to get him through 6 or so encounters, with 2 short rests.

Id rather be playing either a straight Warlock 5 or Sorcerer 5. For starters its 3rd level slots.

The above PC was 14th level, W2/S12. There's no shortage of resources when your sheet has this on it (plus two short rest recharge slots):

At that point, you're just crapping out hexed EB everywhere, quickening virtually whenever you want, rarely using your other slots for anything than quickening EB, because doing 6d10 + 6d6 + 24 damage to a single target while pushing it to Pluto is often the most powerful thing you can do. A 7th-level Finger of Death does an average 61.5 damage, while his Quickened Hexed EB does an average 94 damage with up to 60' of pushing. The dude barely used his spell slots for anything other than flinging around EBs and the occasional Fireball or Cone of Cold. So as a W2/S12, he was missing out on being able to cast something like Fire Storm once a day in exchange for being able to outright murder adult dragons in two rounds, practically at will.

There was a 14th level full Warlock in the party, but it was obvious to everyone who was the star of the show.

 

[Flamestrike]

The above PC was 14th level, W2/S12. There's no shortage of resources when your sheet has this on it (plus two short rest recharge slots):

View attachment 133748

At that point, you're just crapping out hexed EB everywhere, quickening virtually whenever you want, rarely using your other slots for anything than quickening EB, because doing 6d10 + 6d6 + 24 damage to a single target while pushing it to Pluto is often the most powerful thing you can do. A 7th-level Finger of Death does an average 61.5 damage, while his Quickened Hexed EB does an average 94 damage with up to 60' of pushing. The dude barely used his spell slots for anything other than flinging around EBs and the occasional Fireball or Cone of Cold. So as a W2/S12, he was missing out on being able to cast something like Fire Storm once a day in exchange for being able to outright murder adult dragons in two rounds, practically at will.

To get there you need to be 2 full levels behind in spellcasting over the journey to 14th (and this is really bad).

Also, you're sucking down 2 SP per round, or around 8 per encounter (factoring a 3-5 round encounters). At 6 encounters per long rest (2 short rests) you're burning 48 SP quickening cantrips - or your starting 12 SP, plus 6 from your recharging 1st level slots, and then burning all of your 1-4th level sorcerer slots into the remaining 30 SP.

Doesnt exactly leave you much in the tank to do anything else.

It's good single target damage (if all 6 attacks hit) but its resource intensive, only really coming 'online' in the teens.

There was a 14th level full Warlock in the party, but it was obvious to everyone who was the star of the show.

Warlocks get pretty sick class features at 14th level (armies of Thralls, Hurl through hell, Master of hexes etc), plus he has access to magic like Etherealness, Force-cage and Plane Shift.

Presuming bog standard Fiend lock, he got fireball 2 levels earlier, ASI 2 levels earlier and invocations quicker as well.

 

[fearsomepirate]

To get there you need to be 2 full levels behind in spellcasting over the journey to 14th (and this is really bad).

As soon as you make 2 levels of Warlock, it's all gravy from there.

Also, you're sucking down 2 SP per round, or around 8 per encounter (factoring a 3-5 round encounters). At 6 encounters per long rest (2 short rests)...

I never really know how to respond to people who try to use theorycraft to trump experience. I can say I've never seen a published adventure maintain a consistent 6-8 encounters per day, nor did I see many encounters last 3-5 rounds with a Sorlock/Warlock/Lore Bard/Fighter party.

It's good single target damage (if all 6 attacks hit) but its resource intensive, only really coming 'online' in the teens.

The power gap between the Sorlock and the straight Warlock is noticeable long, long before the teens. It's more like 8th level, which is when the Sorlock can follow up a quickened Fireball with two hexed EBs, and it just widens as play progresses. At 11th level, the Sorlock can basically metamagic 2nd level slots into a blast on par with Disintegrate. It's like having an Archery Battle Master Fighter who uses Action Surge and a pile of superiority dice 5 times per short rest instead of once, or a Paladin who has lots of extra high level smites per day.

This was a flat-out problem by 14th level, because the Lore Bard, an especially bright guy, figured out that it is always better to buff the Sorlock than the Warlock. This resulted in the Warlock feeling pretty left out, since the combat dynamic turned into Mega Eldritch Blast Guy And His Assistance, which is why, ever since then, I've banned multiclassing into Warlock. No ifs, ands, or buts. I had one player whine about it, and when I said, "Sure, but I'll change the rule so EB levels with Warlock levels instead of player levels," surprise, he didn't want to be a Bardlock anymore.

 

[jgsugden]

...There was a 14th level full Warlock in the party, but it was obvious to everyone who was the star of the show.

That phrase says all you need to say about the situation. However, the math does not really add up.

The difference between 12 and 14 for a sorcerer is 2 SP, 1 7th level slot, 1 spell known (presumably for 7th level) and your 14th level subclass ability. Also light armor and the rest of the simple weapons. In exchange you get that high 'cantrip +2 sp' damage option - but assuming you'll have hex is a bad assumption. Casting it means you give up 3d10+15 damage in the first round, in exchange for 3d6 damage - and then you get a bonus 6d6 damage in the second round. That means that after 2 rounds you get 9d6 hex damage and gave up 3d10+15 damage. Quick quiz - what are two methods to get to 31.5 average damage? You have to be in a position where three rounds of doubled up EB attacks do not kill an enemy before hex makes sense in combat. You're far better off having that concentration devoted to a spell you cast precombat.

Regardless, 7th level and 6th level quickened disitengrates, followed by a fire bolt or toll the dead, deal more damage per round than the double EBs. It takes a number of rounds before the doubled up EBs make up for the differential of that 7th level Disintegrate.

I've done sorcerer, warlock and sorclocks - all for prolonged periods. They're all fine options, but none of them really stands out as overpowered. I find that the sorlock lacks the pure identity of the other approaches, and thst tends to be less fulfilling, but beyond that they are all fun.

 

[Mort]

As soon as you make 2 levels of Warlock, it's all gravy from there.

But you're sacrificing quite a bit to get there, no?

1. You're sacrificing 2 full caster levels. That means, if you multi early, your at level one spells until other casters hit level 3 spells. And that gap keeps, you're always 1 spell level behind. And you don't even get the higher slot (without the actual spells) like you would multi-ing into paladin, you're a full spell level behind.

2. You're ASI/feat is delayed by 2. Early on that's no small thing.

There is clearly decent increased versatility, but the early levels seem like they'd be a bit rough.

 

[Dausuul]

1. You're sacrificing 2 full caster levels. That means, if you multi early, your at level one spells until other casters hit level 3 spells. And that gap keeps, you're always 1 spell level behind. And you don't even get the higher slot (without the actual spells) like you would multi-ing into paladin, you're a full spell level behind.

You're thinking of this from the point of view of a full caster, but the sorlock isn't that. The sorlock is a basically a fighter subclass. They shoot force arrows, their fighting style grants a 10-foot knockback with each hit, and their Action Surge has a "powered by Quicken Spell" sticker and can be used multiple times per combat.

If you want high-level spell options, yes, you will be behind (which is why I don't like it as a ritual build); but for raw damage output, it's very hard to beat.

 

[fearsomepirate]

But you're sacrificing quite a bit to get there, no?

1. You're sacrificing 2 full caster levels. That means, if you multi early, your at level one spells until other casters hit level 3 spells. And that gap keeps, you're always 1 spell level behind. And you don't even get the higher slot (without the actual spells) like you would multi-ing into paladin, you're a full spell level behind.

2. You're ASI/feat is delayed by 2. Early on that's no small thing.

There is clearly decent increased versatility, but the early levels seem like they'd be a bit rough.

You sacrifice two caster levels to get

a) An at-will attack that keeps pace with a Fighter
b) The ability to easily power up that attack to be one of the most powerful attacks in the game
c) The ability to do this increasingly frequently.

The roughest level is 3. It evens out at 5 and picks up from there. The reason it isn't a big sacrifice is as a general rule (i.e. if you aren't exceedingly clever), multiclassing puts you significantly behind the standard damage curve. Every damage-focused class except the warlock relies on class level, not character level, for its damage tiers. There's a good reason they didn't make Rogue sneak attack dice or Fighter extra attacks depend on character level. You'd get massive multiclass munchkinism...which is exactly what a Paladin, Bard, or Sorc 2-dipping Warlock is.

For a sorc, the versatility sacrifice is marginal at high levels. Early on, sure, having a 6th-level caster who can't cast Fireball is annoying. At high levels, the Sorc is down a single spell slot. Imagine if there were a 7th level spell called this

Bodacious Blight
Casting time: 1 minute
Duration: 24 hours
Concentration: No

Your Charisma decreases by two, and you gain the ability to cast as a cantrip. As a bonus action, you can spend a single sorcery point to increase the damage by 3d6. This extra damage persists for up to one minute as long as you are concentrating.

Put whatever penalties you want on it. Proposing a 7th-level non-Concentration spell that lets you cast Blight as a cantrip would get you laughed out of the room. The basic concept is ridiculous. But that's about what a Sorlock is from 11th level on. You lose your single highest-level slot and take a small penalty in exchange for having a cantrip that is in the same ballpark as 3rd or 4th level spells (yeah, I know blight does a little more raw damage, but EB has a number of other benefits, hence the comparison). IMO, making Eldritch Blast a cantrip instead of a Warlock class feature was a huge mistake in 5e, second only two how crappy W4E monk is.

 

[auburn2]

I certainly wouldn't let that work. I'm sure the intent is for a spell to do the damage, not just talk about it or defend against it.

This is what the book says, "...you can temporarily replace its damage type with a type that appears in another spell in your spellbook..."

Stoneskin doesn't have a damage type in it. It mentions damage types, but a spell has to do damage to have a damage type. You'd need to know a spell that does slashing damage like Alter Self or Cloud of Daggers. Those are only 2nd level, though.

Thanks for the exact verbiage. That is consistent with what I remember.

Your interpretation though is completely the opposite of mine. The "slashing damage type" .... "appears" in stoneskin so you can use it on any 4th level spell or less. I am pretty sure that is the intent, otherwise you would have very few options with this feature and it would not make much sense nor be nearly as powerful as most of the other 2nd level wizard features.

 

[cbwjm]

Thanks for the exact verbiage. That is consistent with what I remember.

Your interpretation though is completely the opposite of mine. The "slashing damage type" .... "appears" in stoneskin so you can use it on any 4th level spell or less. I am pretty sure that is the intent, otherwise you would have very few options with this feature and it would not make much sense nor be nearly as powerful as most of the other 2nd level wizard features.

You'd still have plenty of options, there are damage spells spread throughout each level, just not slashing damage. Comsidering you generally only need one other damage type to beat a resistance or immunity, there shouldn't really be too much issue there, especially since the scribe wizard would, or at least should, be looking at which spells they're choosing and picking up diverse damage dealing spells.