D&D 5E RIP alignment

[Maxperson]

This. You may not have argued for those other things but making the same arguments here are, to me, a sign to stop and maybe reconsider. I would.

That's fallacious reasoning, though. If you want to counter the argument, counter the argument. To try and argue that the argument itself is what makes something right or wrong and not the content you are arguing about, is fallacious.

 

[Flamestrike]

Regardless of anything else in the thread, thank you for recognizing The Punisher as the serial killer he is.

Hes LE. Anyone that says differently is confusing his status as a protagonist with his alignment.

He may have (warped) good ends in mind, but thats irrelevant. He's a mass murdering sociopath prepared to engage in brutal torture, who follows a strict code, and is highly disciplined and strongly believes in order.

Above Castle I hate misrepresentations of Vader. As a Jedi he was reckless, unpredictable, above the law and impulsive, but altruistic and self sacrificing (CG). As a Sith he was equally reckless, uncontrollable, above the law and impulsive, but also merciless and cruel (CE).

I often see Vader as depicted as LE. There is nothing Lawful about him. He respects no code, has no honor, never keeps his word, betrays everyone, and a meeting with him is as likely to see you killed as it as anything else. The only thing keeping him in line is fear of the Emperor (who he actively seeks to supplant and betray).

Hes a very Chaotic Evil servant to a LE regime.

 

[darjr]

That's fallacious reasoning, though. If you want to counter the argument, counter the argument. To try and argue that the argument itself is what makes something right or wrong and not the content you are arguing about, is fallacious.

I didn’t say that. If you come to the same conclusion you’ve at least considered that angle.

 

[Maxperson]

Then what's the point?

If I said you, idk, Aqarys Baltabay (random name from the top of my head) is LN, what information would it give you?

Pretty much none. Ok, he respects traditions or has a code. What kind of traditions? What kind of code? I don't know. And these questions are immensely more important than "does X respect traditions or not".

It's not one or the other. LN gives me a large stepping off point for filling in those other details. As a DM, if I see that Agarys Baltabay is LN, the I can use that as a large foundation for the few details that will create the code and such. I have to do very little work to get the same character you get designing the character from scratch. Without that LN, not only do I have to do much more work to get to the same spot, but I have to figure out if I want him to have a code and such that would be LN in D&D, or whether I want to develop a more LG personality or CN or, or, or.

Then I have to do that dozens more times for all the various monsters and NPCs. Having a base alignment for me to build off of is a huge time saver, and if I really don't want this particular gnoll to be CE, I can ditch it and develop a LN personality and quirks.

 

[Maxperson]

I didn’t say that. If you come to the same conclusion you’ve at least considered that angle.

What?

 

[Flamestrike]

Then what's the point?

If I said you, idk, Aqarys Baltabay (random name from the top of my head) is LN, what information would it give you?

Pretty much none. Ok, he respects traditions or has a code. What kind of traditions? What kind of code? I don't know. And these questions are immensely more important than "does X respect traditions or not".

Its shorthand for follows a code, is disciplined, honourable and respects tradition and order, is not someone who actively harms others but lacks convictions to be truly self sacrificing or altruistic.

Its the 'Judge' alignment. In two words I have something to work on.

Like - I'd still like a little more to work on like a flaw and a bond and a paragraph or two of the persons motivations and outlook, but its a 2 word snapshot that puts you in the ballpark.

 

[darjr]

What?

You brought up a good point. But I wasn’t saying what you said I was saying.

 

[Remathilis]

While it’s obfuscated by the hyperbole, I do think there’s an underlying truth that @Remathilis is alluding to. There has been a gradual shift in the focus of most D&D campaigns. While epic battles still happen and roleplaying romance and sex is pretty niche, there has been a gradual shift in focus away from killing monsters and taking their stuff towards narratives that spotlight the characters’ internal lives.

Thank you. This was where I was going. A shift from stopping external Evil forces toward exploring internal struggles and personal relationships.

 

[Aldarc]

DnD makes no assumptions that people of the same alignment will see eye to eye, be friends or anything of that nature, or that people of different alignments can't work together or be friends.

Neither does fiction. HBOs Rome has LN Lucius Vorenus and CE Titus Pullo as good friends. The Good aligned Avengers fractured and fought each other. NG Deadpool works closely with LE Punisher (until Punisher goes that step too far and starts to murder people). Magneto and Charles Xavier work closely together at times and maintain a strained friendship despite being NE and LG respectively.

Run these same characters by someone else who likewise "understands alignment perfectly" and they could just easily come out with different alignments for these characters. But then it becomes the predictably circular matter of Person A dismissing Person B as not understanding alignment as well as Person A does.

 

[Oofta]

Then what's the point?

If I said you, idk, Aqarys Baltabay (random name from the top of my head) is LN, what information would it give you?

Pretty much none. Ok, he respects traditions or has a code. What kind of traditions? What kind of code? I don't know. And these questions are immensely more important than "does X respect traditions or not".

As it states in the MM it "provides a clue to its disposition and how it behaves in a roleplaying or combat situation." The PHB states "broadly describes its moral and personal attitudes."

Alignment doesn't dictate anything, just gives you a general idea. If I need details I'll add it.