D&D 5E RIP alignment

[Hatmatter]

Alignment on societies is... always weird. Not that I haven't used it on that before, but once again that really depends on what you think "Lawful" is.

I agree Justice and Rule. I would rather it simply be used for the small (individual characters) and the large (the Outer Planes).

That being said, some monsters (like the chromatic and metallic dragons) seem to have been designed around alignment. And certain undead and monsters connected to the Outer Planes (like demons, devils, solar, and so forth) would benefit from keeping their alignments. For me, it has been useful for me to know if certain societies or monsters have lawful or chaotic tendencies, and I would prefer that to remain, but if it would make my sisters and brothers happier, I could see the alignment descriptions for those situations being replaced with an adequate description in the text.

We are, after all, a community and, speaking for myself, it pains me to see people arguing and get worked up about what should be a fun game. If D&D is not brining us together but is causing divisions, then we should all look at ourselves (me first!) and ask why that is and do what we can to change the way we interact with each other.

 

[tetrasodium]

See I think that is where it is most important, because it is a decent shorthand for understanding the way the government there works. We know UNDOUBTEDLY that there are societies in the real world where wholesale murder of homosexuals is performed by the governing body itself. That is undoubtedly evil. A government run by a lich? Evil. Drow society with it's slaves, turning a blind eye to crimes if you are not caught even though they know it was you? Evil. Worshipping a demon lord in the Abyss? Evil. Nazis? Evil, plain and simple. The Arthurian Camelot? Undoubtedly Lawful good.

and yet these law abiding cogs in the machine of their government & society are chaotic

Spoiler

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

So....whose side is winning?

 

[Hatmatter]

So....whose side is winning?

That which is chaotic masquerading as lawful and that which is neutral masquerading as good.

 

[JEB]

Now I wonder if Wizards actually did any polling on tough questions like how to handle the depictions of orcs, or ASIs, or alignment. I don't recall seeing anything like that, but maybe they did some quieter research?

Not that simple polling results should be the end-all be-all for decision-making on matters of inclusivity, of course - but it would nice to have seen solutions that considered the wide range of opinions on the matter being demonstrated in this thread.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Now I wonder if Wizards actually did any polling on tough questions like how to handle the depictions of orcs, or ASIs, or alignment. I don't recall seeing anything like that, but maybe they did some quieter research?

Not that simple polling results should be the end-all be-all for decision-making on matters of inclusivity, of course - but it would nice to have seen solutions that considered the wide range of opinions on the matter being demonstrated in this thread.

I guarantee if you polled every D&D player world-wide that question "Is Alignment racist?" the answer would be "No, are you crazy? Leave me alone."

 

[Justice and Rule]

See I think that is where it is most important, because it is a decent shorthand for understanding the way the government there works. We know UNDOUBTEDLY that there are societies in the real world where wholesale murder of homosexuals is performed by the governing body itself. That is undoubtedly evil. A government run by a lich? Evil. Drow society with it's slaves, turning a blind eye to crimes if you are not caught even though they know it was you? Evil. Worshipping a demon lord in the Abyss? Evil. Nazis? Evil, plain and simple. The Arthurian Camelot? Undoubtedly Lawful good.

Sure, but my problem is that "Lawful vs Chaotic" becomes really weird, to the point of not making sense. If someone wanted to really make an argument that alignment is not lore, they'd pull out what @tetrasodium did because I have no idea how the heck elves of all stripes and colors are listed at "Chaotic" when they generally live in ordered empires of some sort.

Like, when trying to judge a society, what counts as neutral good, or just true neutral? I just don't know how that society is ordered.

Now I wonder if Wizards actually did any polling on tough questions like how to handle the depictions of orcs, or ASIs, or alignment. I don't recall seeing anything like that, but maybe they did some quieter research?

Not that simple polling results should be the end-all be-all for decision-making on matters of inclusivity, of course - but it would nice to have seen solutions that considered the wide range of opinions on the matter being demonstrated in this thread.

Sure, but at the same time they probably wanted to avoided a larger uproar. This sort of stuff attracts culture warriors of all stripes, and in the middle of the whole "cancel culture" panic, they probably don't want to get a spotlight from Fox News. Heck, they still might.

 

[Helldritch]

1) Chicken or the egg? I mean, do you write the lore then put on the alignment, or vice versa? But both are linked, regardless.

2) Alignment on societies is... always weird. Not that I haven't used it on that before, but once again that really depends on what you think "Lawful" is.

1) Alignment first. Always. That tool is as important for me as the stat block. But nice analogies you got there. After so many years, it is easy to forget that the need for foes precedes their society. D&D has its roots in wargames afterall.

2) not for me
It is not weird but natural. Alignment foe society does not mean that everyone in that society believe that it is the only way. But it represent how the vast majority of that society behave, strive for and idealize. It could also be an absolute or not. It all depends on the DM.

 

[Krachek]

They made a shift in race definition, but removing alignment is more than needed for now.
Humanoid and culture will be describe with a wider spectrum in future products and thus alignment will still be needed. We will see more sample for orc, drow, gnome, and they will simply avoid to cornered them in a single behavior. In fact it will make better products.

 

[teitan]

and yet these law abiding cogs in the machine of their government & society are chaotic

Spoiler

View attachment 133848

WHo said anything about law abiding cogs in their society? I called out EVIL. Drow society is undoubtedly evil. Dark Elves who come from Drow Society do not have to be Evil just like a random German or even German military personnel during WWII have to be evil. Don't confuse the society and culture for the individual. What makes Drow society worse is that those who aren't evil turn a blind eye or they leave because... Drow society is THAT evil and oppressive.