Playtest (A5E) Level Up Playtest Document #14: Warlock

GKEnialb · Mar 26, 2021

This isn't my favorite of the improved classes. I agree with a bunch of what's already been said, so I'll quote my strongest agreements:

I feel the use of spell points is just there to be different, without really adding anything. The warlock's spellcasting was already different from other casters. Why not just keep that, if the only difference is spell points?

This really just seems like making a change just for the purpose of making a change (and complicating it in the process). Since warlocks were already unique and sorcerers are very similar to wizards, it may have been better to keep the warlock spell style similar to O5E and use this spell points style for sorcerers.

I'm assuming that "any" invocation means that [Court] and [Eldritch] invocations are fair game? I see the difference between the types of invocations thematically, but I'm not quite sure why they need to be siloed.

It's confusing that the general term for invocations is "Eldritch Invocation" but the name of one of the tags is also "Eldritch", which you don't get until later. Presumably you can only choose an untagged invocation when you choose an "any" invocation, but really should be more clear, since the word "any" implies any and the text says "you gain an eldritch invocation of your choice" with no stipulation that it can't be tagged. Other posters interpreted this the opposite of how I did, which proves it's unclear (to me). This just adds confusion with no benefit that I can see.

Spellcasting Ability: We aren't locked into Charisma anymore! Yes! Approve.

This is great.

Whiff of the Beyond: This seems awfully powerful. Other classes that have had similar abilities have limited it (IIRC) to one of those types and let you take the knack repeatedly for other types. You might want to tone it down. As it is, it's more useful than detect evil and good.

Agree that it needs to be nerfed, even if just something like you don't know the creature type.

Pact of the chain: does the familiar have to be within reach of the primary and secondary target to have both effects or can the warlock be within range of one and the familiar in range of the other and affect both targets?

Eldritch Ingot (et al): This may be the only use of multiplication other than random character weight. If your proficiency is 3, why not have 3d10 instead of 1d10*3 to be more consistent?

Patron Token is very cool.

Exploration Knacks: Good job again with these, especially Mirror Mirror. Exploration Knacks really add to the diversity of play. I don't have an issue with some of the O5E invocations becoming knacks - they fit in well.

doctorbadwolf · Mar 26, 2021

TwoSix said:
I don't think I'd say that. Being able to use magic weapons or weapon-specific feats (assuming those are in A5E) with your spellcasting stat is a meaningful upgrade over Eldritch Scythe. Plus, using your weapon with combat maneuvers or anything else that requires an Attack action over a melee spell attack.

Just looking at Tier 1, a Pact Blade user with Lifedrinker will be doing 2d6+3+3, 13 avg, an Eldritch Scythe attack will be doing 1.5x(1d8+3), avg 11.3, assuming 2 enemies in range. And the Pact Blade can switch to a Heavy Crossbow as an action; the Eldritch Scythe user needs to take an invocation to gain access to Eldritch Ray for ranged attacks.

This isn't to say I don't have issues with Pact Blade as written in this playtest. I don't like that its progression is completely orthogonal to Eldritch Blast progression, since EB progression is major part of the design. My personal solution would be an invocation that allows you to mix in attacks with the Pact Blade with uses of Eldritch Blast, 1 attack at level 5 and 2 attacks at level 11. I think Tasha's Bladesinger showed there's a lot of room to mix together attacks and spells in the action economy for gishes.

My solution would be to simply have Scythe allow you to manifest a couple different weapon types (or have a few weapon-style Blast options), and have Pact of The Blade explicitly add to Scythe rather than pretending it doesn't exist. I always thought Bladepact should just have let you pick a warlock cantrip, and cast it with a range of 5ft, and treat doing so as making a melee weapon attack by taking the attack action.
Boom. Now all the Eldritch Blast invocations also improve your Blade Pact attacks. Done.

TwoSix said:
This is one of those aesthetic things that's going to come down to surveys. I like the spell points, personally, although the auto-scaling spell slots have their charms. If they go back to spell slots, I definitely think the "grant one spell" invocations should be a 1/LR free cast to allow for more caster-heavy warlocks (a house rule I've used in my own games that works great).

I agree. I realised after a or of work that my Binder class is largely what I wanted the warlock to be in the first place, and one of the features that made me realise that was that I gave it Vestiges that increased it's spellcasting, letting you run a gamut from "warlock but without any spell invocations or mystic arcanum" to "full mystic arcanum casting plus lots of Vestiges that give 1/LR spells or let you learn a spell you normally couldn't." And my Ritual Tools (like pact boons, but it's a blade, bell, or bowl) each teaches you additional spells that count as Binder spells, and the Binder learns and prepares spells like a Wizard, but casts them like a Warlock, and has really strong ritual casting.

Having realised all that, i'm trying to be careful to not judge the level up warlock against my binder so much, and instead just compare it to the PHB warlock.

Faolyn said:
Spellcasting Ability: We aren't locked into Charisma anymore! Yes! Approve.

Agreed.

Faolyn said:
Pact of the Chain: A suggestion: instead of saying that you can pick from those options, create a standard creature statblock with a few different abilities and let the warlock make their own. Maybe like the new Summon spells from Tasha. If your familiar is fey, it has ability A or B. If your familiar is a fiend, it has ability C or D. If your familiar is an aberration, it has ability E or F. And so on.

I think this would actually open things up more than what is currently the case. I'd also add, as an invocation if necessary, the ability to spend a spell slot (or points, if we absolutely must keep spell points) to increase the stats of the familiar, just like casting a tasha's summon spell at a higher level.

Edit: In fact, I think my monster-pet subclass of my Binder class may steal that idea and have spell levels at which you can make your pet medium, and then large, sized.

Relatedly, perhaps the best way to go with pact of the chain is to actually bypass the find familiar spell, as such, and simply say that you can bind a familiar via a ritual or by spending [spell resource], and it follows xyz rules.

TwoSix · Mar 26, 2021

doctorbadwolf said:
My solution would be to simply have Scythe allow you to manifest a couple different weapon types (or have a few weapon-style Blast options), and have Pact of The Blade explicitly add to Scythe rather than pretending it doesn't exist. I always thought Bladepact should just have let you pick a warlock cantrip, and cast it with a range of 5ft, and treat doing so as making a melee weapon attack by taking the attack action.
Boom. Now all the Eldritch Blast invocations also improve your Blade Pact attacks. Done.

I think using cantrips as an attack would work, also. I do think a dedicated melee warlock should do somewhat more damage than a ranged warlock's 4d10+20, and mingling the cantrip option with multiple attacks, feats, the hex spell, etc, could be challenging to word.

My other concern would be integrating that with magical weapons, as I do think (core book assertion aside) that assuming some amount of magic item progression is an important balance consideration.

doctorbadwolf said:
I agree. I realised after a or of work that my Binder class is largely what I wanted the warlock to be in the first place, and one of the features that made me realise that was that I gave it Vestiges that increased it's spellcasting, letting you run a gamut from "warlock but without any spell invocations or mystic arcanum" to "full mystic arcanum casting plus lots of Vestiges that give 1/LR spells or let you learn a spell you normally couldn't." And my Ritual Tools (like pact boons, but it's a blade, bell, or bowl) each teaches you additional spells that count as Binder spells, and the Binder learns and prepares spells like a Wizard, but casts them like a Warlock, and has really strong ritual casting.

Having realised all that, i'm trying to be careful to not judge the level up warlock against my binder so much, and instead just compare it to the PHB warlock.

I'd be interested in seeing that if it's something you have available or published. I use the Mage Hand Press Binder in my own game, but I'd love to see a different take with a warlock-like chassis.

tetrasodium · Mar 26, 2021

GKEnialb said:
Eldritch Ingot (et al): This may be the only use of multiplication other than random character weight. If your proficiency is 3, why not have 3d10 instead of 1d10*3 to be more consistent?

If it's intentional rather than WiP shorthand they have different probability. average for a d10 is 5.5 so3d10 is 16 where the results are likely to gravitate towardsthe middle like this

while 1d10*3 will be all over the map like this with those wide area things to range from "that wasn't bad" to "oh wow"

Faolyn · Mar 26, 2021

tetrasodium said:
I'd go with light/dancing lights or similar with some spooky fluff shading, you don't notice the scratchings of a madman in the margins are actually a ritual to gain power quickly in a well lit room or under the purifying warm glow of a candle

Definitely a possibility. I don't think they're going to fluff basic cantrips, though.

RSIxidor said:
I'd give some range to Scythe beyond melee reach, 20-30', maybe.

I'd give it a more "realistic" range of 10-15 feet myself.

maceochaid said:
I'm wondering if for clarity the "Eldritch invocations" and "Court Invocations" could be shunted to the class features:

Since it's supposed to be backwards compatible, probably not. I'm guess that Court equals patron, so they'd have to rewrite the fiend/fey/goo archetypes and I don't think they're going that way.

TwoSix · Mar 26, 2021

tetrasodium said:
If it's intentional rather than WiP shorthand they have different probability.

Honestly, I'm not sure which way the intent is. I can't think of an effect in the PHB that does YdX damage, where Y is a variable like level, or stat mod, or proficiency bonus; that makes writing out the rules text for it difficult since there's no examples.

NotAYakk · Mar 26, 2021

The 3 different blasts are a bit off.

Ray is by far the best of the 3. High damage, attacks AC.
Spasm needs to be more different than "wisdom save". Also, forcing one foe to make 4 saves from one action is, prior to this feature, a no-go in 5e.
Scythe is just sad.

I'd drop Wisdom casting. Int/Cha. Also, you should tie something else to that choice to make it more than a charop decision.

Warlocks get Int/Cha saves, having those be the spellcasting choices make sense. And Wisdom doesn't line up with the "pact with another being" fluff as well. Even a celestial warlock can be Int or Cha.

A 5th level baseline warlock can cast 2 level 3 spells.

Your warlock can cast 1 level 3 and 1 level 1.

A 9th level base warlock can cast 2 level 5 spells. Your warlock can do it at level 10.

Now that 9th level version of your warlock can cast a 2nd and 5 1st level spells, which is a buff.

A 11th level base warlock can cast 3 level 5 spells and a level 6 spell. Your warlock would need 21 spell points to do this (plus level 6 pseudo-slot).

Spell points also feel sterile to me. I am going to propose some retrained chaos.

Restrait: When you cast a spell using a Warlock spell slot, you can choose to cast it at a lower level. Roll 1d6 plus the number of levels you reduced the spell slot; if the result is 7 or higher, you retain the spell slot. If you fail to retain the spell slot, you gain an additional bonus to your next retain roll equal to the bonus on this roll (until you next take a long or short rest).

Ignoring the last sentence, if a level 5 spell is worth 7, then a level 4 costs 5/6 of it, a level 3 4/6, a level 2 3/6 and a level 1 2/6; the ability to carry over retain points makes the lower level spells a bit cheaper than this.

It reduces bookkeeping, and replaces it with a bit of uncontrolled chaos. It also means that such a warlock is no worse off than the baseline warlock spell wise.

They do need to keep track of their retain points. And there is a strategy to them; casting a 1st level spell at level 9 is +4 regain points. If you lose the spell, you are 100% guaranteed to be able to cast a level 3 spell (4+2=6) without consuming the slot.

It also opens things up to blood magic. Like, being able to self-damage to gain a bonus on, or reroll a retain roll, or even make a retain roll on a non-restrained spell slot.

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Agonizing blast remains ridiculously strong, available at level 2, and not taking it makes you much weaker in combat. It is a kind of trap option not to take it unless you are doing a MC build.

tetrasodium · Mar 26, 2021

@Faolyn darkvision is so common that light is pretty fluff & some of the fluff cantrips actually have one or two equally almost barely useful options

@TwoSix I'm not sure the intent either & could see it going either way but it's definitely an interesting approach that would justify one of those giant dice for once if intentional

Xethreau · Mar 26, 2021

TwoSix said:
I can't think of an effect in the PHB that does YdX damage, where Y is a variable like level, or stat mod, or proficiency bonus; that makes writing out the rules text for it difficult since there's no examples.

Bingo