D&D 5E AoE spells: Do you play by RAW or RAI?

[doctorbadwolf]

Not saying you are wrong but on a side note, isn't it crazy that the freaking damage beam can pass right over top of them and do nothing?

Not at all. It’s a beam of light. There’s no particular reasons that it can’t take a few second to deal damage.

 

[Lanefan]

I am not disagreeing with the majority here, just saying it is poorly worded if they intend the damage to be once a round and not up to once a turn.

Yeah, a simple blanket rule along the lines of "Unless a spell's description specifies otherwise, damage from any one casting of a spell can accrue to any target no more than once per round." would solve a lot of these questions; and then the only issue would be figuring out exactly when in the round that damage occurs (personally, for simplicity's sake in a system like this, I'd just have it that any spell someone has cast or is controlling always takes effect on that character's turn no matter what; for delayed damage, it has to wait until that character's next turn)

 

[tetrasodium]

This is generally how I try to play it, although it is not clear to me. The only thing that makes me question this is the phrase "a turn" instead of "its turn". "A turn" implies they can take this damage on anyone's turn, to include taking it more than once a round.

Also if you think about this - if as a PC I shove a creature into a natural fire or a pit of lava or something like that, he would generally take the damage on my turn, so it would stand to reason if I shove a creature into a wall of fire, shouldn't he take damage on my turn as well?

I am not disagreeing with the majority here, just saying it is poorly worded if they intend the damage to be once a round and not up to once a turn.

If someone were to shove you into a pool of lava would you take damage:

1. Immediately
2. Not until realizing that you are on fire in a pool of lava & escaping
3. Not until realizing you were in lava & completing the process of stabbing them when you decide to remain in the pool of lava so their friend can't get a free swipe
4. Immediately when you land in the lava & the entire time you are trying to juggle stabbing them as you are walking out of the lava pool
5. at no point because the lava was not created under you so take no initial damage upon being shoved & continue ignoring the lava while stabbing them only to be swiped at by their friend because it's a better option than remaining in the lava where you would begin taking damage

 

[S'mon]

If someone were to shove you into a pool of lava would you take damage:

1. Immediately
2. Not until realizing that you are on fire in a pool of lava & escaping
3. Not until realizing you were in lava & completing the process of stabbing them when you decide to remain in the pool of lava so their friend can't get a free swipe
4. Immediately when you land in the lava & the entire time you are trying to juggle stabbing them as you are walking out of the lava pool
5. at no point because the lava was not created under you so take no initial damage upon being shoved & continue ignoring the lava while stabbing them only to be swiped at by their friend because it's a better option than remaining in the lava where you would begin taking damage

It would take a moment for the heat from the lava to burn me, depending on lava temperature. Since I am real this must be real lava, so I would be on it not in it.

I'd say for sticky/cooler lava & I'm wearing thick clothes, I take damage if I end my turn on the lava.

 

[Flamestrike]

Alice casts spell.... bob thornwhips an extra baddie into the spell.... cindy took the telekinesis feat and punts yet another baddie in on her turn. Dave uses his gusto cantrip(?) To shove yet another baddie in. It's not that much of an edge case

None of that is resolved any different. Anyone you push into the AoE takes the damage/ effect when you do so.

It just gives you a chance to push people out of the area before their turn starts.

 

[tetrasodium]

None of that is resolved any different. Anyone you push into the AoE takes the damage/ effect when you do so.

It just gives you a chance to push people out of the area before their turn starts.

problem being that there are spells like incendiary cloud where the result is zero damage

Spoiler

A swirling cloud of smoke shot through with white-hot embers appears in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on a point within range. The cloud spreads around corners and is heavily obscured. It lasts for the duration or until a wind of moderate or greater speed (at least 10 miles per hour) disperses it.

When the cloud appears, each creature in it must make a Dexterity saving throw. A creature takes 10d8 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature must also make this saving throw when it enters the spell's area for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there.

The cloud moves 10 feet directly away from you in a direction that you choose at the start of each of your turns.

Creatures make a save if they are in the same space under these conditions

• When the cloud appears. Such as when it gets cast on a creature
• When a creature enters the cloud for the first time in a round. If being shoved doesn't count & they immediately exit the cloud during their turn they won't be there to end their turn.
• When a creature ends their turn in the cloud

Create Bonfire Grease & others I'm sure share this same problem with the RAW of the spell.

 

[Flamestrike]

problem being that there are spells like incendiary cloud where the result is zero damage

Spoiler

A swirling cloud of smoke shot through with white-hot embers appears in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on a point within range. The cloud spreads around corners and is heavily obscured. It lasts for the duration or until a wind of moderate or greater speed (at least 10 miles per hour) disperses it.

When the cloud appears, each creature in it must make a Dexterity saving throw. A creature takes 10d8 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature must also make this saving throw when it enters the spell's area for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there.

The cloud moves 10 feet directly away from you in a direction that you choose at the start of each of your turns.

Creatures make a save if they are in the same space under these conditions

• When the cloud appears. Such as when it gets cast on a creature
• When a creature enters the cloud for the first time in a round. If being shoved doesn't count & they immediately exit the cloud during their turn they won't be there to end their turn.
• When a creature ends their turn in the cloud

Create Bonfire Grease & others I'm sure share this same problem with the RAW of the spell.

What problem? You're conflating rounds and turns for starters, but I'll put that to one side.

If you cast the above spell on a creature it is affected (and must attempt the save).

If (on a subsequent turn) the creature enters the area, or ends its turn inside the area, it repeats the save.

So if my Wizard buddy casts this spell on an Orc, it must attempt the save. Then if I shove a different Orc into the area of the spell on my turn, it also must attempt the save. Then, on the Orcs turn, if any of them remain inside the AoE and ends its turn there, it gets hammered again.

Whats the problem?

Spirit Guardians is an example of a spell that does nothing when you cast it, only affecting creatures that start their turns in the area, or enter the area for the first time on a turn.

A Cleric could cast Spirit Guardians and a nearby allied creature COULD shove a creature inside the radius, outside of that radius, before the affected creatures turn starts (saving it from damage).

Feature, not bug.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Not at all. It’s a beam of light. There’s no particular reasons that it can’t take a few second to deal damage.

In fact it's far more realistic. Space Opera TV and movies has made us used to seeing people zapped with laser beams that act like bullets, but the reality is a laser does damage over time as it remains focused on the target. Move out of the beam quickly enough and you don't get hurt.

 

[S'mon]

problem being that there are spells like incendiary cloud where the result is zero damage

Spoiler

A swirling cloud of smoke shot through with white-hot embers appears in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on a point within range. The cloud spreads around corners and is heavily obscured. It lasts for the duration or until a wind of moderate or greater speed (at least 10 miles per hour) disperses it.

When the cloud appears, each creature in it must make a Dexterity saving throw. A creature takes 10d8 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature must also make this saving throw when it enters the spell's area for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there.

The cloud moves 10 feet directly away from you in a direction that you choose at the start of each of your turns.

Creatures make a save if they are in the same space under these conditions

• When the cloud appears. Such as when it gets cast on a creature
• When a creature enters the cloud for the first time in a round. If being shoved doesn't count & they immediately exit the cloud during their turn they won't be there to end their turn.
• When a creature ends their turn in the cloud

Create Bonfire Grease & others I'm sure share this same problem with the RAW of the spell.

Involuntary entry counts as entry. It's cheesy but the wording on several spells lets different N/PCs drag a target N/PC in and out of a damaging zone, doing damage on each moving character's turn.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

problem being that there are spells like incendiary cloud where the result is zero damage

Spoiler

A swirling cloud of smoke shot through with white-hot embers appears in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on a point within range. The cloud spreads around corners and is heavily obscured. It lasts for the duration or until a wind of moderate or greater speed (at least 10 miles per hour) disperses it.

When the cloud appears, each creature in it must make a Dexterity saving throw. A creature takes 10d8 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature must also make this saving throw when it enters the spell's area for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there.

The cloud moves 10 feet directly away from you in a direction that you choose at the start of each of your turns.

Creatures make a save if they are in the same space under these conditions

• When the cloud appears. Such as when it gets cast on a creature
• When a creature enters the cloud for the first time in a round. If being shoved doesn't count & they immediately exit the cloud during their turn they won't be there to end their turn.
• When a creature ends their turn in the cloud

Create Bonfire Grease & others I'm sure share this same problem with the RAW of the spell.

It is one thing not to like RAW and not understanding the rules.

Entry means subject A enters area B. If we assume that entering is relativ to the rotating earth (or a moving ship, which makes it quite more complicated), then there is no problem.
You could argue that sometimes the in world logic is sometimes off, but because of the way DnD handels initiative and seperate resove of simultaneous actions you need to find a solution to not make a spell over and underpowered.

Actually, in 4e such spells usually dealt their damage only 1 per round, not once per turn, which I prefer. In 3.5 every entry was punished, so if you could move someone in and out during a single turn, the damage was huge.

In 4e the 1/round system made problems however. It started with damage at the end of a turn 1/round to damage at start of turn 1/round and I think it endet at once at the beginning and when you enter and then at the end or so...

My preferred method would be the last one. You are dealt damage once, no matter what you do, and then in your turn you can freely leave. But that is still debatable.

Even better would be going back to simultaneous action and just noting at which initiative the effect was created. Probably you could even roll initiative for them or have them always act at initiative 20. Everyone in the effect at initiative x will be affected.
This a bit akin to lair actions. If you are
really fast, you might get out, before you take damage. Would make faster initative really mean something.