Playtest (A5E) Level Up Playtest Document #16: Combat Maneuvers

Welcome to the 16th Level Up playtest document.

Last year we released the first half of the combat maneuvers as part of the fighter class playtest. Now it’s time to show you the revised chapter.

This is a long document with about 170 maneuvers; combat maneuvers occupy the same conceptual space for martial characters that spells do for magical characters (although, of course, they are all non-magical).

We don’t expect you to evaluate every maneuver in this document. Maneuvers are divided into 11 Traditions and we ask that you pick one or more Traditions to focus on and then give us your feedback via the playtest survey.

Level Up Playtest Document #16: Combat Maneuvers — Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)

Welcome to the 16th Level Up playtest document. This playtest contains a candidate for the game’s Combat Maneuvers system.

www.levelup5e.com

When you are ready, please fill out the combat maneuvers playtest survey.

Mailchimp Survey

us15.list-manage.com

 

[Li Shenron]

OMG... this is it for me and LevelUp, sorry. It just feels so wrong and contrary to the way I like playing the game nowadays on many levels. I'll leave it to those for whom this is more appropriate to their playstyle.

 

[Waller]

OMG... this is it for me and LevelUp, sorry. It just feels so wrong and contrary to the way I like playing the game nowadays on many levels. I'll leave it to those for whom this is more appropriate to their playstyle.

Welcome to playtests, I guess? That's how it's supposed to work. They put all sorts of stuff out there and survey it to see what sticks. That's why they dropped minor adv/disadv.

 

[Horwath]

There is really lot of things in this package and Survey page could be formatted better, so maybe just one maneuvers that stick out IMHO.

Adamant Mountain:

Heavy stance:
expertise in Str(athletics) is nice.
I would change partly ignoring difficult terrain with partly ignoring forced movement.
Like reduce forced movement you suffer by 5 or 10ft. Depends on balance.

Unbreakable:
Seems kind of expensive. 2 pts, maybe even 1 point is enough. You don't go down that often, and when you do, this has usage only in 45% of death saving throws. And it costs a "slot" for having it.

Mighty melee:
This also feels expensive:
5th level maneuver, 3 pts, one less attack for extra 1d8 damage?
Even if you are a 20th level fighter with 4 attacks and Polearm mastery: it's 4d10+1d4+25 vs 3d10+4d8+1d4+20, 49,5 vs. 56 damage.
6,5 damage for 3pt cost and 5th level maneuver. If you have a +3 weapon it's only 3,5 damage more. Not to mention that it is better to have 5 instead of 4 attacks. If you add +10 damage from Heavy armor mastery, this maneuver is pure DPR loss.


Biting Zephyr:

Double shot:
I feel that this would be better as Action(technique) than a bonus action tax beforehand.
Otherwise, it's good.

Farshot stance;
more or less OK,
30/60 would be better, but I will address this again real soon,

Ricochet:
Same as Double shot, should be technique,

Distant shot: oh god, why...?
this is the worst:
4th level maneuver, cost 2 pts, cost bonus action, for what? ignoring disadvantage on long range for 1 round?

my suggestion: delete distant shot, rework farshot stance that it gives no disadvantage at long range. keep long range the same, no increase from the stance.

Horizon shot;
delete or put some reasonable distance limit on range. Reduce the cost to 2 points and only normal attack cost.
I.E: you can attack a target at 3× your weapon's long range without penalties for range or cover.


Mirror's Glint:

Flowing form:
Disadvantage on perception is not needed and will probably be forgotten most of the time...

Heightened reflexes:
As something that boosts your reflexes, it seems weird that you have to prepare for it in advance...
Just make it work as: when you could take a reaction and you do not have a reaction left, spend a point to make a reaction. Limit 1(or maybe 2) extra reactions per round.


Mist and Shade:

Mugging hit:
Should be a reaction after you make a hit.

Rapid Current:

Charge:
No need to punish a class that has Dash as a bonus action...

Rapid drunk:
should be a 1st level maneuver,

First blood;
maybe too expensive at 3 pts,


Razor's Edge:

Dangerous strikes + Perfect edge stance;
no need to limit crit on 17-20. Do hate Champion Fighters that much?

Perceptive stance;
No need to limit it just to combat,

Death blow:
reduce attack cost to 2, just double the damage rolled if attack roll would also be a crit.


Sanguine Know:

Dual grapple:
this should be default grapple,


Spirited Steed:

Mounted charge:
again, classes with Dash as bonus action should not be punished by this maneuver.
Also, it's very circumstantial, so 2 pts might be too much.

Trample:
it should be your mounts FULL speed.
change cost to 1 pt per target,
add targets size of your mount can be targeted by they make saving throw with advantage. Targets 2 or more sizes smaller than your mount, make saving throw with disadvantage.

Sacrifice mount:
should be lower level and cost less,


Tempered Iron:

Striding swings:
need clearer wording of ability.


Tooth and Claw:

Springing stance:
just double the default values.

Expert tumble:
Just make it 15 or 20 feet. No need to punish fast characters for being fast.
And it could make difficult terrain be a factor.


Unending wheel:

Throwing stance:
it should be with all weapons, maybe exclude Heavy weapons.

Preternatural Strikes:
this could be a stance.

 

[Lefi2017]

Though of course to clarify — our monster book doesn’t make monsters more powerful, it makes them more interesting (and a little surprising sometimes) and adds useful GM tools to each entry. Like you say it’s about adding variety. Generally speaking A5E characters are about the same power level as O5E characters, but they have more options (and their ability scores are a little lower) and an entire exploration pillar to play in.

so a O5e pc is on an *more or less( equal capability level to A5e and both can play in the same group without the O5e feeling underpowered

 

[Morrus]

so a O5e pc is on an *more or less( equal capability level to A5e and both can play in the same group without the O5e feeling underpowered

Pretty much our stated design goal from the start.

 

[Maxperson]

So I read it as the following.

You roll with advantage, and one of the following scenarios occur:

1) Both rolls miss: You miss.
2) One roll hits/one misses: You hit as normal
3) Both rolls hit: You get a crit
4) One roll crits/one hits: You get a crit, and an additional damage die.
5) Both roll crits: You get a crit, and an additional damage die (aka the same as number 4).

Well, given how rarely you roll two crits at the same time, I'd give the player two bonus damage dice.

 

[Stalker0]

Generally speaking A5E characters are about the same power level as O5E characters, but they have more options (and their ability scores are a little lower) and an entire exploration pillar to play in.

I think (at least from the play tests we have seen), it depends on the class.

Some classes have clear trade offs. Some classes are straight up power boosts compared to their vanilla version

 

[Morrus]

I think (at least from the play tests we have seen), it depends on the class.

Some classes have clear trade offs. Some classes are straight up power boosts compared to their vanilla version

If only we had some system in place by which these things could be playtested for!

 

[Horwath]

I think (at least from the play tests we have seen), it depends on the class.

Some classes have clear trade offs. Some classes are straight up power boosts compared to their vanilla version

some classes needed straight up power boost

 

[Stalker0]

some classes needed straight up power boost

But that's not levelups stated design goal. If it was "rebalance the classes", then I'd be for it, but its designed with compatibility in mind. The same I see that is, if one person brought in a O5e class, and another brought in the LU version of the class, that both would have a different but roughly equal experience. You can't do that if one of them is a straight up better version of the class than the other.