D&D 5E Comparing Monk DPR

Chaosmancer

Legend
Really, just drop the attunement and don't let it stack with Mage Armor so that casters can't abuse it, leave it for mostly Monks and unarmored Barbarians. For everyone else it's just Studded Leather.

I'm even fine letting it stack with mage armor. 15+Dex is good, but most mages aren't going to be running around with high Dex, and the best they could get without Shield is 20 AC. Which again, isn't that hard for the martials to get or exceed.
 

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Lord Twig

Adventurer
I haven't figured out the math yet, but can anyone determine what the DPR of a monk would be if they only used Stunning Strike one per round and only used Flurry of Blows if the Stunning Strike landed?

So a 12th level monk would attack twice, if at least one hit he would try Stunning Strike. If the Stunning Strike failed he would use Martial Arts for his bonus action and that is it. If the Stunning Strike succeeded he would spend another Ki for Flurry of Blows and on the following round would try one Stunning Strike and would use Flurry of Blows since the creature would still be stunned for their next round. With 12 Ki a monk could keep this up for at least 6 rounds (probably 8 or more since the Stunning Strike would fail about half the time), which should be enough for two tough combats before needing a short rest assuming he doesn't use any Ki on mooks or easy fights.

Of course a stunned opponent also gives everyone else in the party advantage on their attacks and it reduces the opponents damage to 0 for a round. But even without that I think the monk's DPR would be pretty darn good.

As I said above, I haven't figured out the math yet, but here are the stats I am going to assume. Monk starts with at least a 16 in Dex and Wis. With Tasha's rules for customizing your origin, every race in the game can get a least a 16 in both using point buy, and all except humans if you use the standard array. Boost Dex to 20 and Wis to 18 at 12th level.

For the opponent I was going to assume an AC of 17 (from the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating from the DMG p. 274) and a Con save of +6. This would give the monk a 45% chance of succeeding on a Stunning Strike when attempted.

For reference, I will point out that a Behier (CR11), Beholder(CR13), and Death Slaad(CR10) all have a Con save of +4. The Arcanaloth(CR12) has a Con save of +2. The Archmage (CR12) has a Con save of +1. Demons do better with the Nalfeshnee(CR13) having a Con save of +11, but the Yochlol(CR10) has a Con save of +4. Devils have the Erinyes(CR12) with a Con save of +8 and the Horned Devil(CR11) with a Con save of +5.*

Edit to add more creature Con saves: Remorhaz(CR11) +5, Roc(CR11) +9, Stone Golem(CR10) +5, Iron Golem(CR16) +5 (And yes, golems can be stunned. Also, while golems have advantage to saves vs. magical effects, as far as I can tell Stunning Strike is not magical), Vampire(CR13) +4 and a Young Red Dragon(CR10) +9. Really I am thinking I should lower the Con save to +5 for the DPR calculation. If the creature has a high Con save, just don't use Stunning Strike.

*And just for fun, the Tyrannosaurus Rex(CR8) has a Con save of +4, so an 8th level monk with a 16 wisdom could stun one 45% of the time with one hit.
 
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Lord Twig

Adventurer
Finally tried my hand at some math for my proposal above. I'm not a mathematician, so I might be wrong on this, but I think it might be right, or at least fairly close. Anyway, here it is:

12th level Monk with 20 Dex, 18 Wis, +9 to hit, 1d8+5 damage, Save DC 16. Opponent AC 17, Con save +5.

If the creature is not stunned to begin with, and the monk attacks using Stunning Strike if either of the first two strikes hit, and uses Flurry of Blows only if the creature is stunned, his DPR is 31.1157. I believe a Fighter using a greatsword with the Great Weapon Fighting style and 3 attacks a round is doing 27.25 DPR. That is without a subclass though, so no increased critical range or combat superiority dice, which would bring that up. Also, I think a Warlock using Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast and Hex is doing 28.65 DPR. So it is above Treantmonk's "baseline".

Breaking it down a bit more.
If the monk stuns on the first attack his DPR is 37.655. Cost 2 ki.
If the monk stuns on the second attack his DPR is 34.825. Cost 2 ki.
If the monk fails to stun his DPR is only 19.2. Cost 1 ki. (Or 0 ki 12.25% of the time if the first two attacks miss completely)
The monk's chance to stun while only trying once per round is 43.875%.

If the creature starts the round stunned the monk's DPR is 36.91 and his chance to stun again is 49.25%.

With an average chance of stunning a creature round over round of 46.5625%, the Monk's average DPR is 34.649905375 and he is spending ~1.5 ki per round. So he can maintain that DPR for 8 rounds.

Ok. Now prove me wrong, because I think I just showed that the monk beats the baseline DPR, and I didn't even add in the extra damage from other characters taking advantage of the stunned creature.
 
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auburn2

Adventurer
I'm not sure why you think the 5-weeks (theoretical) of looking for the studded leather matters when comparing the attunement time. That is a complete non-sequiter. After you have the item, it takes 1 minute to put on, and since most people don't strip out of their armor during adventures, it is usually a non-issue. Also, I note how this went from "it is shorter to take a six-second action to put on a shield than an hour to attune to an item" to "But an hour is shorter than the five weeks it takes you to find the armor". That doesn't disprove my shield argument in the slightest.
It matters because you rarely have 5 weeks between adventures. You rarely have 2 weeks.

RAW suggests two short rests, but that is far from guaranteed. In fact, this is a commonly discussed problem on these threads. But, even if you have the recommended two short rests, that still doesn't allow you to swap items mid-combat. Yes, it takes an action, but I could pull out a shield in the middle of combat if I needed to. I can't take an hour rest in the middle of combat if I needed to.
Meh ... how often are you going to need that other item you want to attune to in the middle of combat. And it is 2 short rests and a long rest per day.



I believe the money issue has been addressed repeatedly at this point. Looking at the individual treasure table you can expect 1 to 5 gold on CR less than 4 creatures. That is not including their equipment, which can be sold. A single shortsword can be sold for 5 gp. 5 gold is going to be able to buy you between 10 and 50 meals, and that is if the inn price doesn't include a meal, which generally our DM has the inn price cover food and drink.
RAW comfortable lifestyle is 2gp per day, so that short sword lasts two and a half days, not 50 meals. I find when adventuring it is usually more than this - buying horses, ropes, adventuring gear, passage on ships, tickets to the ball etc.


We've had a few wizards. Not many, and the DM rarely gives out spellbooks either way



Most spells don't require them, so that would make sense, wouldn't it?
For a wizard all spells require a spellbook. Yes if he loses it or it is destroyed he can still cast spells he had prepared, but he loses the onees he didn't and can't anny more spells ... ever until he replaces the book.


I'm going to guess that you don't drive a Ferrari while wearing a Rollex. Most people don't, so that is a good guess.
Not a Ferrari, but I do have 7 cars including a Mercedes S65 AMG which costs just as much as a Ferrari, a Jaguar XRK and a Corvette.

No, I was saying I don't see why kicking in an unlocked door would require a roll. It didn't require a roll to turn the door handle, why would it require a roll to make a more dramatic entrance?
Because you are not turnign the handle. It is typically a strength check to force a door.


So, you need a class that can use a shield, wants to use a shield, wants to use a weapon, but either also wants to cast spells that have material components or doesn't take warcaster.

That is a pretty narrow field. And, again, staves are pretty good weapon choices, and if they want to be casters... they likely would just be using cantrips anyways.
You are forgetting characters that want to wield a 2-handed weapon.


Huh?

Point buy maxes at 15.
20 Dex/16 Wisdom at level 8 with 1.5ASIs is doable a number of ways with many races. Start with 17/16 and it is half a feat and an ASI like I said.

The arguement is that a fighter in non-Magic plate with a non-magic shield is as good as a Monk with BOD. A normal shield is the same as BOD, that is the entire argument. I am pointing out that at level 8 those two will be equal and at level 12 and beyond the Monk will be better unless the fighter gets a magic item to improve AC. On top of being equal at level 8 in terms of AC, the monk with BOD will get more attacks and doesn;t have to lug around plate and a shield and doesn't roll steath with disadvantage ... so they are not really equal.

A mid-level fighter with plate and shield has 20 AC, so I don't know what you could possibly mean by a heavy armor character never catching up without magic. The Monk hasn't even caught up to the HEavy Armor guy yet. They need another 2 feats. It is 3.5 ASIs minimum. Which is 16th level.
Again the arguement is BOD is the same as a shield. A Monk with BOD will have the same AC at level 8 (as noted above not really equal, but the same AC) and at level 12 and beyond will have a higher AC.


RarityCharacter LevelValue
Common1st or higher50–100 gp
Uncommon1st or higher101–500 gp
Rare5th or higher501–5,000 gp
Very rare11th or higher5,001–50,000 gp
Legendary17th or higher50,001+ gp
Value and cost are two different things.


Probably not, but maybe. Also, again, encumberance is a trivially easy problem to solve. Unless your DM specifically goes out of their way to overencumber you, then it really doesn't come up.

Attunement is a trivially easy problem to solve, and if you are picking up swords, shidlds and armor off of every enemy you kill, you are going to get encumbered pretty darn quickly.

Further the 10,000 gold you are lugging around to buy studded leather with weighs 200lbs.

OR, and this is the truth, the handidness just doesn't come up because it is a solved problem. You have still not shown anything except opening doors that seems like it would be any issue, and we don't tend to open new doors until the fight is over.
Opening doors was your example, as was it is fine to drop your weapon.

Attunement doesn't come up because it is a solved problem. In the unlikely case you have too many items, attune to what you want, then change it if you need.

Dude... you realize that the DM put them in the dungeon for you to find right? That is what "give out" means. I'm not saying a little gnome in red robes handed them to us out of his magic sack, but if the DM doesn't place the items for us to find... there is nothing to find.
Presumably he rolls on tables .... and that is why my party got a useless magic shield instead of something useful (like BOD).


Attunement slots
5,000 gold price tag
I can do it from level 1 to 3, instead of waiting til level 5 or higher
A Rogue does not get studded leather at level 1 to start with, and I still don't know why you want to sleep in armor all the time. If you are out in the wilderness maybe. Do you wear a leather jacket to bed at night at home.

I mean, you are the one so worried about being attacked while you sleep that you will use an attunement slot on an item that is utterly worthless to you in any other possible situation, so why not start protecting yourself from the beginning instead of hoping for a magical set of non-armor?
No I would use an attunement slot on that if I had 3 other items to attune to, but if I didn't? Sure I would!

I neve said I hope for a magical set of non-armor, I said if I had it and had the attunement slots I would use it. If I had it and it was not an attunement item, then it is a no brainer to use it.

My character in one game has a pipe that can blow smoke rings that can be formed to anything I want. The pipe gives me no combat bonuses, no armor bonuses, no in-game skill bonuses (yet), no bonus if I am caught in my pajamas, but I have it and I use it because why wouldn't I? Guess what else, if I needed to attune to it to use it I would be attuned to it.


Think about that for a second. If attunement becomes an issue, you can replace a rare magic item with mundane, low level armor.
If it becomes an issue sure. If it doesn't no need to.

Doesn't that make the item seem... kind of worthless?
Nope. Just like the pipe I talked about above.

They didn't attack me, and I can just grab their weapon. Or my backup weapon that I dropped my first weapon to get out. Heck yes that is a great situation. If I can get the enemy to waste a turn I'm doing great.
He is not wasting a turn. RAW it is an interact with an object for him, just like it is for you. He can pick up your weapon and attack you with it that same turn, just like you could if it was still on the floor on your turn. Further if you are a shield-wearing character with 3 attunement items it is a safe bet that weapon is magical to boot.

shrug

I think charisma is pretty worthless for a cleric. And Dex is easily dropped in favor of using that heavy armor and getting strength. Con and Wisdom are important though.
I think Charisma is a lot more useful than strength on a cleric or for that matter a high armor class. I guess if your game is mostly combat maybe not, but a character with a low charisma is very limited in the games I play, as is a character who gets disadvantage on stealth checks. That is two strikes against such a character for a few points of AC that probably don't matter much.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Something about your math looks wrong to me, but I can't put my finger on it.

If all four attacks hit, that is 1 ki and 4d8+20 which is 38 average damage.

I think that is where I am losing you, partially. 1) I'm bad at the "damage scaling based on AC" calculation, but more importantly 2) I don't see how you are getting 8 rounds with stun and Ki. That would cost 16 Ki, and you only have 12.

Additionally, 46.5% chance of stun is a pretty low chance actually, and if you hit, spend ki, and fail, then try again, then they have to spend the ki again, so it could cost them 3 ki to pull that off, which is 25% of their total ki. That is a heavy resource cost.

Also, again, bad at the AC scaling damage, but Eldritch blast at 12th level with 20 Cha is going to be 3d10+3d6+15, that is an average of 42. If I assume you are taking one attack and counting it a miss, I think that drops it to closer to that 28, but they might be working with a different AC assumption, or not counting the advantage on the hits, and assuming stun comes online only for the flurry.
 

Lord Twig

Adventurer
Something about your math looks wrong to me, but I can't put my finger on it.

If all four attacks hit, that is 1 ki and 4d8+20 which is 38 average damage.
You need to remember to add extra damage from critical hits, and if you add advantage that doubles your chance to crit and reduces the chance to miss by a lot. Those combined really pushes up your DPR.
I think that is where I am losing you, partially. 1) I'm bad at the "damage scaling based on AC" calculation, but more importantly 2) I don't see how you are getting 8 rounds with stun and Ki. That would cost 16 Ki, and you only have 12.
You only try to stun once per round. If you hit and stun, you don't need to do so again. If you hit and fail to stun just give up and try again next round. If you miss, then hit, you try to stun. If you miss your first two attacks or fail to stun in your first two attacks don't waste the ki on a flurry and just use your bonus action martial arts attack.
Additionally, 46.5% chance of stun is a pretty low chance actually, and if you hit, spend ki, and fail, then try again, then they have to spend the ki again, so it could cost them 3 ki to pull that off, which is 25% of their total ki. That is a heavy resource cost.
And this is where I believe people get it wrong. They get so focused on trying to get the stun to stick that they blow all of their ki in one round of attacks. Don't do that unless you REALLY need to. You spend 1 ki per round on Stunning Strike. If it doesn't work, don't worry about it and go to the next round. You never spend ki on Flurry of Blows unless they have advantage (the creature is stunned). So half the time you fail to stun and only spend 1 ki. The other half you do stun and you spend 2 ki, 1 for Stunning Strike and 1 for Flurry of Blows. And a little over 12% of the time you miss with your first two attacks and don't spend any ki at all. Don't try to stun with your Martial Arts attack, it is not worth it if you want to maximize your DPR.
Also, again, bad at the AC scaling damage, but Eldritch blast at 12th level with 20 Cha is going to be 3d10+3d6+15, that is an average of 42. If I assume you are taking one attack and counting it a miss, I think that drops it to closer to that 28, but they might be working with a different AC assumption, or not counting the advantage on the hits, and assuming stun comes online only for the flurry.
The actual calculation is (5.5+3.5+5)x.6 + (11+7+5)x.05 = 9.55 x 3 = 28.65. You have a 60% chance to hit plus a 5% chance to crit.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
It matters because you rarely have 5 weeks between adventures. You rarely have 2 weeks.

You know, this whole 5 weeks thing has been bothering me, I wasn't quite sure where you are getting it from, but I didn't bother to look it up.

Just read through the DMG and Xanathars... and it looks like it takes a single week. So, maybe two or two and a half if you combine the selling and the buying into two seperate rolls. So, I have no idea where you got this 5 week number from it seems to be another homebrew rule of your table.


Also, still, this made up number doesn't disprove the point. Equipping a shield = 1 action. Attuning to a magical item = 1 hour. Equipping a shield is faster than attuning to a magical item.

Meh ... how often are you going to need that other item you want to attune to in the middle of combat. And it is 2 short rests and a long rest per day.

Seeing as I mentioned the short rests, and the long rest is obvious, not sure why you felt the need to tell me what I already obviously knew.

And, speaking of obvious, if I had it attuned before switching over the BoD, obviously it was an item I felt it was neccessary to have ready to go. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have bothered to attune to it in the first place. And, it doesn't need to be the middle of combat. It could be fifteen minutes before the combat, still won't be able to attune to it, since it takes an hour.


RAW comfortable lifestyle is 2gp per day, so that short sword lasts two and a half days, not 50 meals. I find when adventuring it is usually more than this - buying horses, ropes, adventuring gear, passage on ships, tickets to the ball etc.

And a Comfortable lifestyle involves rent and a lot more than just meals per day. That's why meals are listed seperately, because buying food (the thing you were accusing us of not doing) is not the only thing you do under a lifestyle expense.

Also, why be such a big spender? There is nothing wrong with modest which doubles the time you just listed if I wanted to go with lifestyle. Which I didn't. I was talking solely about meals.

For a wizard all spells require a spellbook. Yes if he loses it or it is destroyed he can still cast spells he had prepared, but he loses the onees he didn't and can't anny more spells ... ever until he replaces the book.

Yes, I understand how wizards work. Most of our DMs don't go around ruining primary features of our player characters.

Sure, they could destroy the wizard's spellbook, and therefore they should spend massive amounts of money to make multiple copies to hide in various bolt holes around the world... but we don't, because it isn't exactly fun to make them lose everything. Because, even if you get a new spellbook, it won't have all of your spells you didn't have prepared in it, because you have to copy those down, and you don't have the spell formula to copy.

Not a Ferrari, but I do have 7 cars including a Mercedes S65 AMG which costs just as much as a Ferrari, a Jaguar XRK and a Corvette.

Well, you are clearly in the top percentage of wealth then. My family's newest and nicest car is my 2005 SUV, which is in the repair shop after I was rear-ended by a lady in a truck.

I also note that you didn't mention the Rollex :p


Because you are not turnign the handle. It is typically a strength check to force a door.

And yet, you only call for a roll when the situation is in doubt. The players could obviously open the door, there is no doubt, so why force them to roll?

Also, all of this has been assuming there isn't a player with a free hand at all near the door, so if the DM wanted to try and force a roll... then the rogue can just open the door for the fighter. There is literally no point in a roll, so why waste people's time?

You are forgetting characters that want to wield a 2-handed weapon.

Not a lot of spellcasters weilding two-handed weapons, since we were talking about spellcasting with a weapon and a shield. Also, if you are using a two-handed weapon, spellcasting is even easier.

Yes, in addition to the spellcasting we were talking about, some people might want to use a big weapon. That is called a choice, and they could just as easily be using a versatile or one-handed weapon. So, I didn't really feel the need to state the obvious.

20 Dex/16 Wisdom at level 8 with 1.5ASIs is doable a number of ways with many races. Start with 17/16 and it is half a feat and an ASI like I said.

The arguement is that a fighter in non-Magic plate with a non-magic shield is as good as a Monk with BOD. A normal shield is the same as BOD, that is the entire argument. I am pointing out that at level 8 those two will be equal and at level 12 and beyond the Monk will be better unless the fighter gets a magic item to improve AC. On top of being equal at level 8 in terms of AC, the monk with BOD will get more attacks and doesn;t have to lug around plate and a shield and doesn't roll steath with disadvantage ... so they are not really equal.

20/16 is a total of AC 18.

AC 18 is the AC of Full Plate, a completely non-magical item. You claimed, to remind you, that with an ASI and a half-feat "By 12th level they have the heavy armor guy beat and he will never catch back up without magic" By level 12, the Monk without any magical items can at best have an AC of 19. A fighter with plate and shield is still at 20.


Now, if you want to argue a Monk with those scores and BoD, great, the monk can have 21 AC... And a fighter with Full Plate, a shield, and Defensive Fighting Style has an AC of 21, so... how is it that he is beat and can never catch up without magic? It seems instead like the Monk needed magic to be able to catch up with the fighter. Magic, and three ASIs. What did the fighter need? Gold, or to scavenge some Full Plate from an enemy. In theory, if they had the money, 21 AC could be achieved by a 1st level fighter. You need a level 12 monk with a rare magic item, to match. Level 16 if you want to actually beat them. Are you seeing the discrepancy?

And, generally, if you are going to compare a character with a magical item to one without, the character with the magical item should be better off. And if you give similiar items to both, they should be equal. Give the fighter a +2 Shield that is the same rarity as the BoD... and they blow the monk out of the water. The monk might be able to catch back up, if the fighter isn't using the Defensive style, but if they are, the Monk needs a SECOND magical item to match their AC.

Also, I don't know how your monk is getting more attacks than a 12 level fighter, unless you are talking about spending Ki for Flurry. And "lugging around" the stuff that makes you effective isn't that much of a burden. Especially for a strength fighter.

Value and cost are two different things.

Ideally they aren't. Things shouldn't cost more than they are worth. And something that can't be sold isn't given a value. Sure, I guess an insurance investor might give it a value, but concept is still "if I sell this"

Attunement is a trivially easy problem to solve, and if you are picking up swords, shields and armor off of every enemy you kill, you are going to get encumbered pretty darn quickly.

Further the 10,000 gold you are lugging around to buy studded leather with weighs 200lbs.

Doesn't really matter what it weighs in the city, since we aren't adventuring, does it? And it is a lot lighter as 1,000 platinum.

Opening doors was your example, as was it is fine to drop your weapon.

You haven't given me anything else, and you are the one making the claim. I don't tend to support other people's arguments for them

Presumably he rolls on tables .... and that is why my party got a useless magic shield instead of something useful (like BOD).

Which isn't RAW. Sure, you can, but you can also just choose to put things in. Randomly rolled magic items are a bit of a blight in my opinion.

(We had a game once where we had saved a celestial realm, and the magic angel dwarves brought us to their forge to give us items. DM rolled. One player got an Oathbow, one player got a Vorpal Sword, one player got a Defender.... I got a shield of Expression. A common magical item that was worse than the magical shield I was already using.)

A Rogue does not get studded leather at level 1 to start with, and I still don't know why you want to sleep in armor all the time. If you are out in the wilderness maybe. Do you wear a leather jacket to bed at night at home.

IT was your example that you needed AC while sleeping. Presumably you are worried about being attacked at night. Light Armor can be slept in with no penalty.

And, they don't get it sure, but the only limit is the money, and they could potentially get 45 gold during level 1.

No I would use an attunement slot on that if I had 3 other items to attune to, but if I didn't? Sure I would!

I neve said I hope for a magical set of non-armor, I said if I had it and had the attunement slots I would use it. If I had it and it was not an attunement item, then it is a no brainer to use it.

My character in one game has a pipe that can blow smoke rings that can be formed to anything I want. The pipe gives me no combat bonuses, no armor bonuses, no in-game skill bonuses (yet), no bonus if I am caught in my pajamas, but I have it and I use it because why wouldn't I? Guess what else, if I needed to attune to it to use it I would be attuned to it.

If I had to be attuned to an item that was just a glorified prop I wouldn't attune to it.

Attunement slots run out fast. I'm not saying I would never use any magical item that didn't have a defined use. Sure, if I had that pipe my character might use it too, sounds like a fun toy. But attunement? Nope, I would never attune to it. It simply isn't worth the cost.

And so, again, if your use for this item is literally "if I have nothing better, why not" then it isn't a good item. There should not be a rare magical item that costs attunement that should be comparable to a pipe that makes magic smoke rings.

If it becomes an issue sure. If it doesn't no need to.

Missing the point of "powerful magic item" = mundane armor. You know, the point that is a bit of a concern?

Nope. Just like the pipe I talked about above.

Again, "rare magic item that requires attunement" = Magic pipe that makes smoke circles. The fact you can even make these comparisons highlights that this item is not worth attunement.

He is not wasting a turn. RAW it is an interact with an object for him, just like it is for you. He can pick up your weapon and attack you with it that same turn, just like you could if it was still on the floor on your turn. Further if you are a shield-wearing character with 3 attunement items it is a safe bet that weapon is magical to boot.

Well, sure, if I was a shield wearing character with three attuned items. Then again, I'd also be fairly high level... so, good bet that that enemy might also have some magical gear.

But again, I don't even see why I would need to drop the weapon in the first place. I just mentioned it because you seem to insist that you must always have a free hand during combat, but you have never once supported that. I've made some guesses, but then showed that those aren't things that come up. So, how about you tell me why I would attack an enemy and then drop my weapon? What is the situation where that free hand is that important?

I think Charisma is a lot more useful than strength on a cleric or for that matter a high armor class. I guess if your game is mostly combat maybe not, but a character with a low charisma is very limited in the games I play, as is a character who gets disadvantage on stealth checks. That is two strikes against such a character for a few points of AC that probably don't matter much.

You would be right about the game with the one DM, but the other is 90% roleplaying with quite limited combat.

And, Charisma is something that you need to invest it pretty heavily for it to be worth it. And since we usually have a bard, warlock or paladin, or a rogue with expertise the Cleric isn't usually called on as the face of the party to make the big rolls.

Then again, you seem like your game involves a lot of unneccesary die rolling, so you might be reacting to that. Funny how you never seem to need athletics though.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
You need to remember to add extra damage from critical hits, and if you add advantage that doubles your chance to crit and reduces the chance to miss by a lot. Those combined really pushes up your DPR.

You only try to stun once per round. If you hit and stun, you don't need to do so again. If you hit and fail to stun just give up and try again next round. If you miss, then hit, you try to stun. If you miss your first two attacks or fail to stun in your first two attacks don't waste the ki on a flurry and just use your bonus action martial arts attack.

And this is where I believe people get it wrong. They get so focused on trying to get the stun to stick that they blow all of their ki in one round of attacks. Don't do that unless you REALLY need to. You spend 1 ki per round on Stunning Strike. If it doesn't work, don't worry about it and go to the next round. You never spend ki on Flurry of Blows unless they have advantage (the creature is stunned). So half the time you fail to stun and only spend 1 ki. The other half you do stun and you spend 2 ki, 1 for Stunning Strike and 1 for Flurry of Blows. And a little over 12% of the time you miss with your first two attacks and don't spend any ki at all. Don't try to stun with your Martial Arts attack, it is not worth it if you want to maximize your DPR.

The actual calculation is (5.5+3.5+5)x.6 + (11+7+5)x.05 = 9.55 x 3 = 28.65. You have a 60% chance to hit plus a 5% chance to crit.

See, a single stun attempt per round though is going to rely on that 48%, and that is low. So, you would be very unlikely to get a stun at all. This is where I think your math is falling apart compared to everyone else. You are assuming that you get the stun, but with a 60% chance to hit, and a 48% chance of landing the stun, the odds of it landing are very very low.

And without it, you showed around 19 damage. That is where the other side is coming from I think. Taking the more likely scenario that there is no stun.
 

Lord Twig

Adventurer
See, a single stun attempt per round though is going to rely on that 48%, and that is low. So, you would be very unlikely to get a stun at all. This is where I think your math is falling apart compared to everyone else. You are assuming that you get the stun, but with a 60% chance to hit, and a 48% chance of landing the stun, the odds of it landing are very very low.

And without it, you showed around 19 damage. That is where the other side is coming from I think. Taking the more likely scenario that there is no stun.
The monk has a 65% chance to hit (60% regular hit and 5% critical hit), and with two attacks that raises the chance to hit at least once to 87.75%. The monk's chance to stun vs. a +5 Con save is 50%, so factoring in that he only has an 87.75% chance to hit that lowers the chance of hitting and successfully stunning to 43.875%. Once you have landed a stun your chance of landing at least one hit out of 4, all with advantage, rise to 98.5%. Which raises the chance of a successful stun, if you try only once that round, to 49.25%.

Something to keep in mind with the way odds work. If hit and spend 1 ki to attempt a stun you have a 50% chance. If you fail, then hit again you can spend another 1 ki to get another 50% chance, but for the round you have actually only increased your chance to succeed to 75%, or a gain of 25%. Two 50% chances is = to 75% not 100%. Likewise if you try a third time you increase your odds to 87.5%, or a gain of 12.5%. So every time you spend another ki to stun on the same round you are getting diminishing returns.

Now, of course, the same holds true round over round. Your chance to stun at least once over two rounds, trying only once each round, is 75%. But that would be a different calculation if you wanted to figure out your average damage per combat. DPR is damage per round, so that is what I will stick with.

All of that said I took some shortcuts in my math and I don't think it is quite as accurate as it could be. I honestly don't know if it will change up or down, but I don't think it will change that much. It is a lot of math though, so it might take me a while to come up with the updated numbers.
 

Lord Twig

Adventurer
As promised I went back and cleared up some mistakes and there is good and bad news. The bad news is that I was hoping to make the monk's ki last a couple more rounds by only doing a flurry on a successful stun, but that does lower the DPR for that round to below the baseline. The good news is if you average it with a full round of attacks against a stunned target it brings the average back up over the baseline. More good news is that if you just use Flurry of Blows every turn and Stunning Fist once per turn, it brings the DPR easily back over the baseline and even higher when averaged with a fully stunned round.

For reference, just using Flurry of blows by itself does 25.6 DPR, but has a 0% chance to stun.

So here's how the math breaks down using my previously proposed method of trying to stun on the fist two attacks and only using Flurry of Blows if a stun sticks.

32.5% chance to hit the first time and stun, then the rest of the attacks with advantage:
9.725+27.68=37.405x.325= 12.156625
32.5% chance to hit the first time, fail to stun, the just attack twice more with Martial Arts:
9.725+12.8=22.525x.325= 7.320625
11.375% chance to miss the first time, then hit the second time and stun, then use Flurry of Blows:
0+9.725+18.45=28.175x.11375= 3.20490625
11.375% chance to miss the first time, then hit the second time and fail to stun, then just make one extra attack with Martial Arts:
0+9.725+6.4=16.125x.11375= 1.83421875
12.25% chance to miss the first two times then just attack once with Martial Arts:
0+0+6.4=6.4x.1225 = 0.784
So on a round the creature does not start stunned the DPR is 25.300375
If the creature starts the round stunned the DPR is 36.91
So if you add them together, divide by two, that's 31.1051875. We'll round to 31.

If you just flurry every round, but still only try to stun once on either the first or second attack, the monk can do this for 6 rounds and here is the breakdown:
32.5% 9.725+27.68=37.405 = 12.156625
32.5% 9.725+19.2=28.925 = 9.400625
11.375% 0+9.725+18.45=28.175 = 3.20490625
11.375% 0+9.725+12.8=22.525 = 2.56221875
12.25% 0+0+12.8=12.8 = 1.568
Total = 28.892375
Averaged with the DPR of a stunned round of 36.91 this comes to 32.9011875, round to 33.
 
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