D&D General Character Classes should Mean Something in the Setting

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
To get back to Jenny, she was born during a planar storm, no need for bastards or links to Mage Aristocracy.

The point I’m making is that you definitely gain something from making classes tightly tied into the setting, but you also lose something.

More specifically, the DM forces their vision of the class on the players (like making Jenny a bastard to fit the DM’s vision of the sorcerer class). Is what you gain better than what you lose? That depends.

I would say that in this instance, the WotC approach is probably the best one: in the base game, the one individual DMs are supposed to tailor to their own games, be expansive about how classes fit in.

In DM’s individual games, or in specific settings, you can tie the classes to the setting more closely.
Jenny? Nah. She can be born during a planar storm at my table. No bastard heritage or links to Mage Aristocracy. Just a straight up Sorcerer empowered by the Storm. In the Ashen Lands, no less.

Again, this is not about the -player character- being straitjacketed into a narrow vision. The player can make their character whatever the heck they wanna be. I'm not going to stop them. You wanna have your character empowered by a storm, or get power Warlock-Style from a Djinn, or some other reason? No problem.

The intention is that sorcerers have a place in the setting narrative and storyline. The background. Players are free to take part in that or not, as they choose. But the world -should- have sorcerers in it, and those sorcerers should have some kind of social expectations or identities.

Heck. Jenny the Storm Sorcerer probably wouldn't be referred to as a "Sorcerer" in the Ashen Lands In-Character discussions. "Storm Touched", perhaps. Or "Sea Witch". Specifically -because- she's not part of one of the Sorcerous Bloodlines, thus setting her apart, specifically, from that narrative in-character and making her her own thing by contrast.

Does that make more sense, now?
 

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I just think it sucks that Sorcerers are often left on the wayside in most settings. Rangers and Artificers, too. They "Exist to Exist" for most worlds, with no more binding to the world than the idea that they're "Out There" and "Doing Things".

First off, it's worth nothing this isn't a new issue - Earthdawn, which was basically an attempt to fix every major issue with D&D, back in 1993, from magic items becoming useless instead of growing with you, to dungeons being irrational and having no reason to exist, to magic not being worked into the worlds properly, to classes not being part of the world, did this. So it is a definitely an issue and one with a long history of being an issue.

With those classes mentioned above this is caused by a few things. With Sorcerers, it's two issues - firstly, them being "Johnny Come Lately" in general - they aren't tied into the world because the world wasn't designed to have them in it, and they're not really filling a gap in terms of setting/story, they're filling a gap in terms of play-style. Secondly, in 4E/5E, they're essentially several different classes jammed into one class. This is very different to say, Clerics. Clerics in 5E are one class, with different gods. Wizards likewise, all basically work the same way, get their magic from the same place, but just have different focuses. Even Warlocks, whilst the patrons may be different, the source/type of magic is essentially the same.

Not so Sorcerers. Sorcerers can get their powers from a wild array of utterly unrelated concepts, which don't really feel like they belong to the same class. They're not tapping the same power or anything like that, they're grouped together for mechanical reasons, not conceptual ones.

In any given setting, probably most Sorcerer origins shouldn't be available or rather shouldn't exist as NPCs (like you I'd let PCs use them and provide their own explanations). Then you could use what was left to make coherent connections to the setting.

Artificers are a similar story.

Rangers are just a mess. They're pretty well-included in, say, the Forgotten Realms, that setting they're likely to be agents of a specific religion, and so on, or have other connections that make sense.

Bards are more disconnected - they're more coherent than Sorcerers, because their theme is stronger, but again, probably only certain subclasses should exist in a given setting.

5E in general has exacerbated the issue because it basically treats most classes as a mechanical framework, and the archetypes/subclasses within the class as the real classes.

The word "Paladin" (or "Herald", now, I guess) should hold weight in the Mists of Ravenloft and also on Krynn. It should be a part of the narrative structures of Faerun and Athas. It shouldn't just "Exist to Exist". Is what I'm getting at. For the purpose of the setting, of -any- setting, a character class or race or other aspect should have a purpose.
This is the key problem though.

D&D, historically, has always been or wanted to be two things:

1) D&D

2) A generic fantasy RPG.

Some settings lean in to the first - Planescape, for example, oddly enough - but many settings, maybe most, lean only slightly that way, or don't lean that way. Dark Sun is a good example. It's definitely treating D&D as basically a generic fantasy game and you get the feeling it kind of wishes it wasn't D&D at all. I'd argue Eberron is more of a middle example, it's consciously D&D in some ways, but also feels very generic fantasy game-ish. There's a reason there's a Savage Eberron, for example (i.e. an official Savage Worlds version of Eberron).

If we wove all the classes into a setting, we'd get something amazing like Earthdawn. But you simply couldn't do it with all settings. Some settings just don't fit with certain classes, especially in certain editions, because they were built with different assumptions, and sometimes barely with D&D in mind at all.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
You're really bad at picking up what people think from their posts, Jasper.

Then write clearer Punk.

My writing style isn't against forum rules.

Mod Note:
@Steampunkette and @jasper

Both of you are making this personal - addressing each other personally, rather than discussing the reasoning and information in the posts. That leads to clash of egos and argument. And, on the internet, there's no real reason for people to back down, so this is a clash that neither of you can win by verbally pushing each other around.

So, both of you, stop it.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
To get back to Jenny, she was born during a planar storm, no need for bastards or links to Mage Aristocracy.

The point I’m making is that you definitely gain something from making classes tightly tied into the setting, but you also lose something.

More specifically, the DM forces their vision of the class on the players (like making Jenny a bastard to fit the DM’s vision of the sorcerer class). Is what you gain better than what you lose? That depends.
This. If I say storm sorcerers are all members of a Mage Aristocracy, that means I'm not "supposed to" use storm sorcerer as a base for my cultist of a storm god, or as a character descended from a djinni, or a random farmer struck by lightning who gained powers because of it.

Again, I'm fine with that if someone wants to do it in their game. But the OP said classes "should" mean something, and I'm going to push back against that.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
@Ruin Explorer you make my brain go "Brrrr!" with delight!

You've hit the nail on the head with the big "Problems" of Sorcerers and Artificers being late-additions that aren't or can't really be accounted for in older more traditional settings, like FR. And also with the issue of the classes being shoehorned into "Generic High Fantasy" settings, in some ways.

I like your line of thinking and would like to subscribe to your newsletter!

I suppose my main thrust is... going forward, we should try to make sure that we account for Class Fantasy in the narrative of settings we design. We should make it a part of settings that shapes perspectives if identities without precluding them.
 

This. If I say storm sorcerers are all members of a Mage Aristocracy, that means I'm not "supposed to" use storm sorcerer as a base for my cultist of a storm god, or as a character descended from a djinni, or a random farmer struck by lightning who gained powers because of it.

Again, I'm fine with that if someone wants to do it in their game. But the OP said classes "should" mean something, and I'm going to push back against that.
Why would a cultist of a storm god be a sorcerer and not a cleric? The cleric is a person who worships a divine being and receives power from them. Why have randomly different mechanics for the same concept?
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
This. If I say storm sorcerers are all members of a Mage Aristocracy, that means I'm not "supposed to" use storm sorcerer as a base for my cultist of a storm god, or as a character descended from a djinni, or a random farmer struck by lightning who gained powers because of it.

Again, I'm fine with that if someone wants to do it in their game. But the OP said classes "should" mean something, and I'm going to push back against that.
No... that's ... no.

I've -repeatedly- stated that the Cultural Identity of "Sorcerer" does not and should not limit player option. I've made half a dozen posts to that effect in this thread. Please, for the love of fluff, read what I'm saying rather than inserting your own inferences. I even changed the OP to have a big bold "WRITER'S NOTE" expressing this because I'm tired of repeating it to people who kind of read the first post and jump in with the same gripe you're making here.

Heck, the post you -just- quoted has a direct response from me expressing that the player -could- play Jenny just like that. The only difference is that the -cultural- expectations of Sorcerer would mean that in-character no one would refer to Jenny as a Sorcerer.

Like. Seriously. C'mon.

Why would a cultist of a storm god be a sorcerer and not a cleric? The cleric is a person who worships a divine being and receives power from them. Why have randomly differnt mechanics for the same concept?
EXACTLY THIS!

Mechanically? Sorcerer. Narratively? Cleric. Or Priest. Or whatever in-character term would best apply to the character's narrative role rather than mechanical one.
 

I suppose my main thrust is... going forward, we should try to make sure that we account for Class Fantasy in the narrative of settings we design. We should make it a part of settings that shapes perspectives if identities without precluding them.
Yeah I wholeheartedly agree.

Dark Sun is particularly interesting because whilst it doesn't play nice with standard D&D classes, it does deeply embed some concepts that other settings kept on the periphery - psionics particularly, with both Psionicists and wild talents being very integrated into the setting, and "unnecessary" classes for the setting simply eliminated. It also massively re-jigs Bards, but actually makes them part of setting, rather than "rando jack of all trades dude who can cast massive spells for no apparent reason" (as they were in 2E).

EDIT - As an aside, the Complete Book of Bards was utterly amazing because it gave Bards ways to actually be part of the setting, and it made the spellcasting element feel a bit more rational, and gave you ways to reduce or I think even eliminate it if it wasn't part of that vision of a Bard, before 3E came along and made Bards feel arbitrary and weird again. Thanks 3E.

Eberron is interesting in a different way, because it's a 3E setting, and did a good job of integrating 3E stuff in a very 3E way. Basically with 3E rules, Eberron works and makes complete sense (arguably 3E is the closest to "generic fantasy RPG" too - I say arguably but I think most would agree). In 4E, the rules changes made you go "hmm" about a few things, but it largely worked, just now things weren't perfectly aligned, and the importance of casters didn't make quite as much sense. In 5E, whilst it's absolutely still possible to run the setting in D&D, and run it well, things are way wonkier, because 5E doesn't map well to what Eberron was intended to do in 3E. The "no feats" mandate in particular caused an absolute car-crash of design, where instead of the neat way dragonmarks were done in 3E and 4E, with feats, they had to create pointless subraces of most of the "basic" races to allow them to have dragonmarks.

I think the same story is true for a lot of settings, like they integrate the classes in a way that makes sense to that one edition (Dragonlance and 1E, Forgotten Realms was 1E, but elaborately re-embedded classes with 2E's Godswar, and kind of tried the same thing with less success with 3E and 4E and then half-arsed it with 5E), then people want to move on. However, in 5E you can also see the bending and stretching of D&D to try and use it as a "generic fantasy RPG" even with official settings, thanks to the MtG settings. Most of them align extremely poorly with D&D conceits about magic and classes. But they work well enough - the classes aren't really integrated, but people overlook it.

But yeah, if it was up to me, I'd say all settings should integrate the classes/archetypes that they want to use - then leave it up to individual groups/DMs if they want to bring in other stuff (and how much they integrate it).

I think there's also a case to be made that instead of:

A) Re-hashing old settings.

and

B) Attempting to jam non-D&D fantasy settings into D&D-shaped boxes.

Each edition should get new settings, which properly integrate that edition. Or at least one setting like 3E did with Eberron. 5E has no settings like this. All 5E settings are box-jamming or revivals/continuations of settings for other editions. It works okay, but with full integration it could be Earthdawn levels of cool.
 
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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Why would a cultist of a storm god be a sorcerer and not a cleric? The cleric is a person who worships a divine being and receives power from them. Why have randomly different mechanics for the same concept?
Because mechanics defining in-fiction role bugs me. There should be multiple ways mechanically to represent you’re empowered by a god or spirit, or you have a pact with an entity, or you’ve learned ritual magic from a book
 

Because mechanics defining in-fiction role bugs me. There should be multiple ways mechanically to represent you’re empowered by a god or spirit, or you have a pact with an entity, or you’ve learned ritual magic from a book
That's a very specific perspective though.

Particularly it's related to the "D&D isn't D&D, it's a generic fantasy game" perspective. It's treating the mechanics as something that aren't actually related to the world, but are just arbitrary mechanical packages that you can pick from. This is comparable to a lot of older points-based superhero RPGs, where two characters could have nigh-identical themes, even ones that, in-setting, claimed to have the same source, but have built entirely different mechanical structures to support them behind the scenes.

So like, it's not unreasonable or invalid to have your perspective, but it is harshly at odds with a lot of perspectives. Personally, I'm not fond of it, because my experience is that when the mechanics have a more consistent link to the setting, the game as a whole tends to be both more compelling, and simply easier for people to RP in.
 

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