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D&D General Character Classes should Mean Something in the Setting

... so when are you starting a new campaign and where can I sign up?
My two groups are already full. And we hope that we'll be able to meet again when the damn covid is behind us. Playing online is not the same as playing face to face.

We play Friday Night Dungeon as exhibition and example of how to play at our hobby store about once every two weeks. (before covid, naturaly). And a few times, visiting DMs from outside the area were surprise at how I enforce some character and class choices. I have been accused more than once of restricting players's choice and very often, it is the spectators that take my defense and say that it is not so. From the outside, it might appears so, but regular at our table know that we votes on how to do things. The only things that will not stand are real life sexism and bigotry based on culture, race and religion. But all these can happen in game (but not on Friday night Dungeons as it is a campaign open to all to see.) The main point here, is that players are responsible for their choices and that they have been properly forwarned.

I often insist about session zero and I explain it to our regular and not so regular spectators that the session zero is there to make sure that everyone is on the same level for the assumption of a campaign. I usually have a very humano centric campaign but if people want a Mos Esley type campaign, I'll be happy to oblige, once in a while. Before covid, I had a group a teenager playing exactly a Mos Esley campaign at our Youth Center where I used to work (but no longer, but I am still giving a bit of free time now and then for the past 20 years. I am still on the admnistration board though...). It was a fun game, but I much prefer humano centric games.
 

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Fanaelialae

Legend
I've only read about half the thread but wanted to get some thoughts down before I forget.

Personally, I prefer to provide organizations over class structures in game. For example, if I were to have a group of mage cops in a setting, it would be made up of many different types of people. I see no reason why a monk or rogue couldn't be a member of such an organization, as they could no doubt contribute significantly, even if the organization has a disproportionate number of artificers. Moreover, it seems odd to me that this organization exists, but no other major groups of artificers (such as an Alchemists Guild, or even something more secretive like something based on a group like the Masons).

That's assuming that class is a thing in the game world itself, which isn't my preference. In my games, a class is mostly just a useful grouping of abilities for the purposes of character creation. If a cleric introduces himself as such, people will understand that he is a man of faith, but there are other folks in the world who call themselves clerics without the benefit of being able to wield magic, or even so much as a mace. Similarly, most people in the world use the terms wizard, warlock, and sorcerer interchangeably. Only those learned in matters arcane comprehend the distinction in such terms.

In my opinion, even in a world where class is a reality, any sufficiently large organization to have significant recognition would typically rely on more than just one class. Sure, you might have a dozen wizards who are part of the Wizards Only Club. But even if the founders of the aristocracy were all sorcerers, at least some of their descendants probably either didn't inherit the magic, or simply decided their interests lay elsewhere. Just because someone has a talent doesn't necessarily mean they will nurture it (my little sister is a gifted artist but chose to pursue a PHD in Microbiology instead).

All that's to say is that I agree that giving characters hooks with which to tie them to the setting is excellent. However, I don't agree with giving it strong class connections. An added benefit of disconnecting these organizations from class concept is that players now have a larger variety of organizations to choose from.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I understand your point from a grammatical standpoint. But to quote the Bard:

What's in a name? that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet; so Romeo would, were he not Romeo called.”

Fighters are roses. There are many kinds of fighters, as many kinds as there are breeds of roses. But a Floribunda Rose, for all it's beauty, is not all that a Rose can be, nor a Knight all that a Fighter can be.

Nor does the title of "Rose" become diminished just because there's only a single "Corpse Flower" (Amorphophallus Titanum) in the whole plant kingdom.

There is a point where words becoming meaningless by definition, so dilute and diverse that they essentially mean nothing. But fighter? I do not agree that it is anywhere near that point.

Because it's about the Class Fantasy. And the Class Fantasy of Fighter is "Hits other people with a weapon -really- well!". And yeah, it's definitely a hell of a lot broader than the class fantasy of a Warlock... but it's not impossibly so.

You're fixated on names.

My point is if Alice the Archer, Sir Bob the Knight, Wicked Charles the Gang Enforcer, Danny the Dandy Duelist, Captain Edwin of the Red Kraken, Freddy the Farmer's Boy from Westfield, Sargeant George of the Town Guard, Scout Hixal of the Elven Vanguard, Duchess Isabella of Eastford, Purple Jack the Psi Warrior, Eldritch Sword Kassandra, and. Lumos Guminson of Clan Urgrand are all fighters then the image of a fighter is muddled. The assumptions of fighters become few. And the usefulness of the term is weakened.

The who point of a class having a meaning is that the members have some big unique noticeable they share and/or a lot of small similarities.if fighters share nothing, it's only use is to display mechanics.
 

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
You're fixated on names.

My point is if Alice the Archer, Sir Bob the Knight, Wicked Charles the Gang Enforcer, Danny the Dandy Duelist, Captain Edwin of the Red Kraken, Freddy the Farmer's Boy from Westfield, Sargeant George of the Town Guard, Scout Hixal of the Elven Vanguard, Duchess Isabella of Eastford, Purple Jack the Psi Warrior, Eldritch Sword Kassandra, and. Lumos Guminson of Clan Urgrand are all fighters then the image of a fighter is muddled. The assumptions of fighters become few. And the usefulness of the term is weakened.

The who point of a class having a meaning is that the members have some big unique noticeable they share and/or a lot of small similarities.if fighters share nothing, it's only use is to display mechanics.
they often share the same basic fantasy of someone with great skill being able to defeat things of great might or supernatural power, they appeal for the same reason batman does.
 

MattW

Explorer
IMHO. Rogues are a difficult class to integrate into a fantasy setting.

Thieves/Assassins/Spies/Conmen. Lots of different options, but they are unlikely to operate on their own. They need organisation. Therefore, they need some attention when it comes to world-building. ve

Narrative Anchors for Rogues

I've never liked the concept of a tolerated/official Thieves Guild or a Guild of Assassins (there are reasons that Terry Pratchett makes fun of these concepts). I would steal something from a real world example. Maybe the Rogues are from a fantasy-equivalent of something like the old KGB: an espionage unit that has (officially) been disbanded? "A toast to His Exiled Majesty! And down with the Usurper!" Or, a drug cartel like the Los Zetas? "I had to get out. They were selling Dragondust to KIDS!"

If you want the rogues to have some dignity, you could go with the semi-mythical Assassins of the Crusader era. Or the Ninja... Make your "rogues" have a religion with a proud history of fighting invaders and/or corruption.

Or... something really low-class. Fagin and the Artful dodger and their crew of child pickpockets. Dickens probably based them on real-world examples from Victorian London. What happens when the Artful Dodger grows up and has ambitions?
 
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Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
I've only read about half the thread but wanted to get some thoughts down before I forget.

Personally, I prefer to provide organizations over class structures in game. For example, if I were to have a group of mage cops in a setting, it would be made up of many different types of people. I see no reason why a monk or rogue couldn't be a member of such an organization, as they could no doubt contribute significantly, even if the organization has a disproportionate number of artificers. Moreover, it seems odd to me that this organization exists, but no other major groups of artificers (such as an Alchemists Guild, or even something more secretive like something based on a group like the Masons).

That's assuming that class is a thing in the game world itself, which isn't my preference. In my games, a class is mostly just a useful grouping of abilities for the purposes of character creation. If a cleric introduces himself as such, people will understand that he is a man of faith, but there are other folks in the world who call themselves clerics without the benefit of being able to wield magic, or even so much as a mace. Similarly, most people in the world use the terms wizard, warlock, and sorcerer interchangeably. Only those learned in matters arcane comprehend the distinction in such terms.

In my opinion, even in a world where class is a reality, any sufficiently large organization to have significant recognition would typically rely on more than just one class. Sure, you might have a dozen wizards who are part of the Wizards Only Club. But even if the founders of the aristocracy were all sorcerers, at least some of their descendants probably either didn't inherit the magic, or simply decided their interests lay elsewhere. Just because someone has a talent doesn't necessarily mean they will nurture it (my little sister is a gifted artist but chose to pursue a PHD in Microbiology instead).

All that's to say is that I agree that giving characters hooks with which to tie them to the setting is excellent. However, I don't agree with giving it strong class connections. An added benefit of disconnecting these organizations from class concept is that players now have a larger variety of organizations to choose from.
To address your first Unique Point: The Alchemist's guild isn't -exclusively- Artificers. But Artificers, which are a rare group of people whose profession largely sprang up in recent years in a single town, are the most well known members because of their unusual method of handling things. Like I said, in a different thread about the Ashen Lands, their original purpose was keeping the sewers of Falconhurst clean and functional, so anyone with skills in:

1) Alchemy
2) Chemistry
3) Investigation
4) Architectural Engineering
5) Fighting criminals, misfits, or monsters in the sewers

Is more than welcome to join. But the class fantasy of Artificers for the setting is tied up in the Alchemist's Guild. That's also why it isn't called "The Artificer's Guild" when that would be more reasonable for an Artificer-Only group.

To address your second Unique Point: Not all Nobles or even Royalty are actually Sorcerers. But sorcery runs in Royal Families (and many old Noble families) due to the power initially bred into the bloodline by the various sources. And any Sorcerer who -is- a Sorcerer and -is- a Royal can always go Prince Harry, marry Megan Markle, and move out to pursue his own lifestyle away from the Royal Family... but everyone sill knows he's Prince Flippin' Henry wherever he goes.

Again, the point isn't to shoehorn every character into a neatly constructed box and keep them there, it's just to give players a sense of place in the setting for their character's skills, talents, and origin in the world's narrative, so that they and the NPCs have a shared understanding... Which of course can be directly undermined or manipulated for gain on one side or the other.

You're fixated on names.

My point is if Alice the Archer, Sir Bob the Knight, Wicked Charles the Gang Enforcer, Danny the Dandy Duelist, Captain Edwin of the Red Kraken, Freddy the Farmer's Boy from Westfield, Sargeant George of the Town Guard, Scout Hixal of the Elven Vanguard, Duchess Isabella of Eastford, Purple Jack the Psi Warrior, Eldritch Sword Kassandra, and. Lumos Guminson of Clan Urgrand are all fighters then the image of a fighter is muddled. The assumptions of fighters become few. And the usefulness of the term is weakened.

The who point of a class having a meaning is that the members have some big unique noticeable they share and/or a lot of small similarities.if fighters share nothing, it's only use is to display mechanics.
At this point you're more discussing a matter of Design Philosophy than a matter of cultural narrative, Minigiant. And your philosophical problem is based on nomenclature. I.E. the naming of things.

I get it. You'd rather have 1 whole class devoted to each of those roles. Maybe 2-3 classes which can more "Closely" split focus between those roles.

By all means, feel free. But that has never been the topic of this thread. Fighters, for all of their variety, are directly supported by pretty much every setting's narrative. And generally in a manner which encompasses many, albeit not -all- of their subclasses.
 

It doesn't take much thought to see that this would be the case in cases on this thread as well. Even if we go right back to the start and have sorcerers as the nobility of the kingdom? How many groups of rich, powerful, and privileged people do you think are going to consistently and as an entire class keep it in their pants? Seriously? And as for pogroms against unsanctioned casters? D&D societies are fundamentally unstable and any group that tries destroying three quarters of its magical firepower is going to either get taken down from within or without. It's a great plot but not a normal baseline for a functional society.
I mean, that's my point though. I have no idea what you think you're arguing against, but if you think that's an argument against what I'm saying, not hard for it, you're completely profoundly not getting it. In a really surprising way. Like WOOSH right past you.

That's exactly the sort of dynamic that makes building the classes into the world interesting. Yes, absolutely they couldn't keep it to themselves. That's the point. That makes it interesting. They want to be they can't. Yes they'd try to control "unsanctioned" sorcerers and so on! Exactly! Now you're world-building.

Bizarre that you think you're disagreeing but yeah, that's what I'm saying. I totally agree with "all nobles are sorcerers but not all sorcerers are nobles", for example. Indeed it's even more interesting because it potentially means having sorcerous powers means you have some sort of claim to nobility in that society, there's whole campaigns you could build around that. Plus you could have the fun of people trying to fake sorcerous powers or the shame of a noble who didn't inherit them (for whatever reason) and so on. That's the kind of world-building that integrates classes into the world and makes the world more fun.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
At this point you're more discussing a matter of Design Philosophy than a matter of cultural narrative, Minigiant. And your philosophical problem is based on nomenclature. I.E. the naming of things.

I get it. You'd rather have 1 whole class devoted to each of those roles. Maybe 2-3 classes which can more "Closely" split focus between those roles.

By all means, feel free. But that has never been the topic of this thread. Fighters, for all of their variety, are directly supported by pretty much every setting's narrative. And generally in a manner which encompasses many, albeit not -all- of their subclasses.

Again. My argument has nothing to do with nomenclature. The fighter is the most broad and variable class in D&D. Therefore making the class mean something in a setting is difficult to impossible without paring down what images and attributes it has to encompass.
 

Sithlord

Adventurer
Again. My argument has nothing to do with nomenclature. The fighter is the most broad and variable class in D&D. Therefore making the class mean something in a setting is difficult to impossible without paring down what images and attributes it has to encompass.
Its not hard to imagine a fighter caste in a society. It’s not realistic. But it can be done. Only members of this caste get the training to be a fighter. Everyone else is some other class that can’t hope to be like a fighter. Heck I remember playing a game where every fighter was a member of the fighter guild. Was it realistic? Absolutely not. It was pure fantasy.
 

Its not hard to imagine a fighter caste in a society. It’s not realistic. But it can be done. Only members of this caste get the training to be a fighter. Everyone else is some other class that can’t hope to be like a fighter. Heck I remember playing a game where every fighter was a member of the fighter guild. Was it realistic? Absolutely not. It was pure fantasy.
Something like this would be completely realistic. The knights and the samurai were basically this.
 

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