D&D General Character Classes should Mean Something in the Setting

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
... First off: That is a RADICAL interpretation of what I -actually- said.

I'm not talking about writing out the player characters and what they will or will not do in the story. I'm talking about DESIGNING and WRITING a CAMPAIGN SETTING before the game ever starts. Y'know, History of the World, Nation-States, Cultural Trappings, Architectural Stylings, Languages, Cosmology, Religious Beliefs, Deities, Monsters, Etc.

-THAT- is where I'm talking about making sure Character Class Fantasies needs to be included. So that when your players pick up your setting notes for the first time and start writing up their own characters they've got a baseline of what the world is like and what the world would be like for a particular character. (Like Orcs being despised in Elftown or Dwarves being sought after for their Stonework or Wizards being constantly chased down 'cause everyone hates magic)

Before you even have your players write up characters. The -baseline- setting. The "History and Geography of the World So Far"

That part. I'm talking about.
OK, but I'm sure you've read this forum enough to know that doing that much work on developing the setting ahead of time without input from the players is not considered good practice for a lot of playstyles.
 

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Fanaelialae

Legend
I think this a popular if somewhat outdated idea (it was a lot more popular in the 1990s and '00s than the last decade or so) but not one well-supported by any kind of analysis. To the contrary D&D, which is quite specific and weird, has been forced on to so many settings, and is partially-diegetic in them, that it's sort of dominated the industry despite being pretty terrible as a "generic" fantasy RPG. But again that's not really the focus here so I'll save lengthy analysis for another thread (in short it would be more about the first-mover advantage combined with specific mechanical peculiarities, particularly level-based advancement that is what has kept it ahead).
Is D&D generic like GURPS? No.

Is it more generic than Earthdawn? By a pretty large margin, IMO.

Earthdawn works for Earthdawn. Which is fine, because that's what it is designed to do. You could probably hack it to do other things, but it would probably entail significant work and you'd likely lose many of the things that make Earthdawn good in the process.

D&D supports a variety of settings. Can it support anything out of the box? No. However, it does support a range of fantasy significantly broader than what Earthdawn is meant to do.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
"Can you make Light? Can you Cure Wounds? Can you invoke the divine Protection from Evil/Sancutary/Resistance to flame/cold/etc...?"
Sure, but that still implies to me that there's some kind of connection between the gods and the ways clerical magic works; that diametrically opposed deities would still have followers that use the same methodology of magic. I can get behind that if the gods are specified as one facet of reality (maybe they're the protectors of the mortal races and their civilization), but not if the gods are running everything, as they're often presented.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
You know, I’ve seen this sentiment before, and I just don’t buy it. D&D is quite generic, 5e in particular.

Its a generic fantasy adventure game, and runs pretty much any variant of fantasy adventure you want, with very little work to convert. Mostly, I just add character options and monsters to fit a setting, theme, and genre/game style.

Hell, in my Space Fantasy game, we barely add anything. We just...play D&D in Space.
That's kinda the point Ruin Explorer is making. D&D is specific enough that you can play "D&D in Space" and have it make flawless sense as a description of a game.

The characterization and iconography of the races, the structure of the classes, the specific and unique monsters, the precise way the game flows. It's all very specific to D&D.

D&D -seems- generic because we think of Tolkienesque Fantasy as Generic, of "High Fantasy" as Generic. When in reality it's more "Standard" than anything. The actual fantasy genre is way more complex than D&D is ready to really represent.

OK, but I'm sure you've read this forum enough to know that doing that much work on developing the setting ahead of time without input from the players is not considered good practice for a lot of playstyles.
Nope. I haven't actually read this forum much at all. I joined ENWorld back in 2015 and lurked for a while mostly watching the various products from afar. I've only delved into the actual forums recently.

That said, sure. For a few playstyles that would maybe suck.

But. You know your players. You know the worlds they want to explore. You know their boundaries. Their hopes. Their goals. The characters they like to play and the themes they like to explore. Write all that in, too.

Hell, if you can convince them to help you design the world all the better. Makes it less work for one person. If that's what you wanna do, do it.

There's nothing in this thread or in my posts which says "You must write your entire campaign setting, alone, in the dark, refusing the company or insight of others." I even -explicitly- wrote a thread in this very forum soliciting opinions, ideas, and suggestions from the forums for my Ashen Lands setting which is still heavily under construction.

Just that you should put the classes and races that you intend to make available into the campaign setting's narrative and cultures in order to help support class fantasy for every class, not just the more "Easy" ones that basically attach themselves.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
This subdiscussion in particular makes me want to design three of the spell lists I have planned (Divine, Occult, Primal) into a -very- pared down central pillar, then do class expansions for unique spells (Bard occult spell list being sound/music for example in addition to standard occult spells as opposed to Warlock occult spell list including Necromancy)... and then give the Cleric's separate Domains spells that are essentially unique to them...

Not 100% sure I'll put in that much work, but it would create a ton of granularity!
As I've said elsewhere (other threads) over the years, I've done much of what you suggest.

Homebrewing classes and setting specific things is -in my estimation- one of the great joys of D&D/fantasy RPGing.

My "Arcane Magic" list is applicable, in it's entirety only to [what my game terms] the Mage class [I do not -in fact, all out refuse to- draw distinctions between "Wizard" and "Sorcerer," at a class level].

The "specialist" Mages, Illusionists, Conjurers, etc... have individualized spell lists that are (roughly) half spells that would be available to all Mages and half spells that are available only to the specialist. It's all still considered "Arcane" magic, because of the nature of the force with which they work. But in the class crunch AND the setting fluff, there is such a thing as "Phantasmal [or, simply, "Illusion"] Magic," "Conjuration Magic," and so on.

E.G. The any "generalist" Mage is going to be able to learn, e.g., Wall of Fog, Glamour (i.e. Disguise Self), Invisibility, Mirror Image, Phantasm I (i.e. Phantasmal Force). Illusionist spell lists have all of that stuff too, of course. But they will also have, e.g., Gaze Reflection, Dispel Illusions/Charms, Phantasmal Killer that general mage's don't. They get things like Phantasmal Force and See Invisibility a level earlier than general Mages...AND, the Illusion Magic Specialist would gain spells like "Phantasm II" and "Phantasm III" (ever increasingly powerful and convincing "Phantasmal Forces"), which the general Mage can never master.

So, I like the combination of common magics and specialty magics.

I also make a distinction between Divine and Nature magic, so Clerics and Druids really aren't working from the same "pool" as it were. So the handling/figuring out how best to do Cleric/Divine magic is really it's own individualized thing.

Druids (and other Nature Magic users) are fairly well tied into natural and elemental related spells and all draw from the same list...though individuals could certainly choose to focus all of their preparations in "plant stuff" or "weather stuff" or "animal and fire spells" or whatever the player likes. But I have not yet come to a place where "grouping/separating" magics for Nature magic-users is necessary (or has been requested).
 

You know, I’ve seen this sentiment before, and I just don’t buy it. D&D is quite generic, 5e in particular.

Its a generic fantasy adventure game, and runs pretty much any variant of fantasy adventure you want, with very little work to convert. Mostly, I just add character options and monsters to fit a setting, theme, and genre/game style.

Hell, in my Space Fantasy game, we barely add anything. We just...play D&D in Space.
It depends on how you feel about adding your own content.

Out of the box, so to speak, DnD is very much it's own thing. The monsters, classes, etc. point to a fairly specific kind of fantasy that's close to the center of the fantasy genre. But that's more because almost all fantasy creators play dnd these days. It's not just trying to capture fantasy in general, it's being DnD.

But if you're willing to make your own content (which isn't hard in 5e) the boundaries open up immensely. Anything in the loosest definition of fantasy, including almost all sci-fi, is possible with enough work.

You're really only restrained by the fact the DnD has 'adventuring' as the macro game loop, so if you want to get away from that the rules stop supporting you much.
 

... First off: That is a RADICAL interpretation of what I -actually- said.

I'm not talking about writing out the player characters and what they will or will not do in the story. I'm talking about DESIGNING and WRITING a CAMPAIGN SETTING before the game ever starts. Y'know, History of the World, Nation-States, Cultural Trappings, Architectural Stylings, Languages, Cosmology, Religious Beliefs, Deities, Monsters, Etc.

-THAT- is where I'm talking about making sure Character Class Fantasies needs to be included. So that when your players pick up your setting notes for the first time and start writing up their own characters they've got a baseline of what the world is like and what the world would be like for a particular character. (Like Orcs being despised in Elftown or Dwarves being sought after for their Stonework or Wizards being constantly chased down 'cause everyone hates magic)

Before you even have your players write up characters. The -baseline- setting. The "History and Geography of the World So Far"

That part. I'm talking about.
And that is a radical interpretation of what I said.

You were talking about the gods. I assume the gods of the setting to be NPCs. Not under the player characters' control. But I also assume them to be characters in their own right - and if they are characters in their own right and I zoom in enough of them they will start doing things I do not expect. There are things that individuals will not do because they are contrary to their nature. But if it's something they could do that wasn't suicidal and there's a reasonably large group of gods then I can assume that at least one of them will have tried it. And if I actually start to write the gods as people then some of them will behave in ways that are in line with their nature but that I don't expect.

Likewise if there's an age old enmity between the elves and the dwarves there will be friendships too. If the baseline setting is not ragged at the edges and fraying at the seams it's because the people that live there don't behave enough like people.

And this is why the presence but rarity of Divine Soul sorcerers is far from a worldbuilding issue if we have an entire pantheon. By denying them you're saying either (a) the Gods can't even manipulate the magic of a single mortal that way, which is a weird limit on their powers or (b) the Gods can but are so stultifyingly conformist that none of them would ever try. (This doesn't mean that divine soul sorcerers have to be remotely as common as clerics of course; there are dozens of reasons why one's rare and one isn't).
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
That's kinda the point Ruin Explorer is making. D&D is specific enough that you can play "D&D in Space" and have it make flawless sense as a description of a game.
That’s generic, not specific, though.

I’m not playing a game that resembles a game in FR or even Eberron, I’m playing a space opera game. It’s more similar to Star Wars than to FR.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
As I've said elsewhere (other threads) over the years, I've done much of what you suggest.

Homebrewing classes and setting specific things is -in my estimation- one of the great joys of D&D/fantasy RPGing.

My "Arcane Magic" list is applicable, in it's entirety only to [what my game terms] the Mage class [I do not -in fact, all out refuse to- draw distinctions between "Wizard" and "Sorcerer," at a class level].

The "specialist" Mages, Illusionists, Conjurers, etc... have individualized spell lists that are (roughly) half spells that would be available to all Mages and half spells that are available only to the specialist. It's all still considered "Arcane" magic, because of the nature of the force with which they work. But in the class crunch AND the setting fluff, there is such a thing as "Phantasmal [or, simply, "Illusion"] Magic," "Conjuration Magic," and so on.

E.G. The any "generalist" Mage is going to be able to learn, e.g., Wall of Fog, Glamour (i.e. Disguise Self), Invisibility, Mirror Image, Phantasm I (i.e. Phantasmal Force). Illusionist spell lists have all of that stuff too, of course. But they will also have, e.g., Gaze Reflection, Dispel Illusions/Charms, Phantasmal Killer that general mage's don't. They get things like Phantasmal Force and See Invisibility a level earlier than general Mages...AND, the Illusion Magic Specialist would gain spells like "Phantasm II" and "Phantasm III" (ever increasingly powerful and convincing "Phantasmal Forces"), which the general Mage can never master.

So, I like the combination of common magics and specialty magics.

I also make a distinction between Divine and Nature magic, so Clerics and Druids really aren't working from the same "pool" as it were. So the handling/figuring out how best to do Cleric/Divine magic is really it's own individualized thing.

Druids (and other Nature Magic users) are fairly well tied into natural and elemental related spells and all draw from the same list...though individuals could certainly choose to focus all of their preparations in "plant stuff" or "weather stuff" or "animal and fire spells" or whatever the player likes. But I have not yet come to a place where "grouping/separating" magics for Nature magic-users is necessary (or has been requested).
In the Ashen Lands I have this idea of sources.

Arcane: The Within and the Without. Because Sorcerers were the first mortal spellcasters, magic from within is what most people think of as "Arcane Magic" and it comes from you. Magic from Without is Wizardry. Using the rules of reality to bend themselves through carefully manipulating reality with ritualized sounds, gestures, and physical representations.

I think all Arcane spells will be available to Sorcerers and Wizards, even the school "Specialty" spells. Kind of to represent the egalitarian nature of Arcane magic. If you have the birthright or the skill you can do it all... within your personal limits.

Divine: The Gods and the Angels. The Gods cover a variety of concepts and are generally pretty loose in their interpretations of magic. Angels are -much- more strict because they exist to protect Elysium (Heaven, basically). So they're all sorts of focused on Justice and Mercy.

A fairly robust central pillar of spells but then spells unique to the Angels and spells unique to Domains.

Occult: The Gone, The Mind, and The Beyond. The Beyond are Old Gods, but in a more directly Lovecraftian way of reality-warping rather than traditional "Spellcraft", so occult magic is representational. The Gone are people and concepts lost to the Occult or Time which provide a mortal structure to the magic of the Beyond that makes it "Safer" to use. And then the Mind is Psionics, because reality was formed by the Old Gods and their influence on all living beings is still present, there are those who can intuit and study how to use their will and ideas to alter the world the Old Gods dreamed into existence.

I'm thinking very narrow "Central Pillar" of Occult Magic and then a -whole lot- of specialized spellcasting for Psionicists, Warlocks, and Bards.

Primal: The Elements, The Green, The Wild, The Storm, and the Reaping. Green referring to Plants and the Old Court and Wild referring to Animals and the New Court.

Probably make The Green, the Wild, and the Storm central to Primal casting, then have the Elements and the Reaping more specialized, with some Wild/Green/Storm specialization, too, but to a much lower degree...

Interesting thoughts, thank you!

And that is a radical interpretation of what I said.

You were talking about the gods. I assume the gods of the setting to be NPCs. Not under the player characters' control. But I also assume them to be characters in their own right - and if they are characters in their own right and I zoom in enough of them they will start doing things I do not expect. There are things that individuals will not do because they are contrary to their nature. But if it's something they could do that wasn't suicidal and there's a reasonably large group of gods then I can assume that at least one of them will have tried it. And if I actually start to write the gods as people then some of them will behave in ways that are in line with their nature but that I don't expect.

Likewise if there's an age old enmity between the elves and the dwarves there will be friendships too. If the baseline setting is not ragged at the edges and fraying at the seams it's because the people that live there don't behave enough like people.

And this is why the presence but rarity of Divine Soul sorcerers is far from a worldbuilding issue if we have an entire pantheon. By denying them you're saying either (a) the Gods can't even manipulate the magic of a single mortal that way, which is a weird limit on their powers or (b) the Gods can but are so stultifyingly conformist that none of them would ever try. (This doesn't mean that divine soul sorcerers have to be remotely as common as clerics of course; there are dozens of reasons why one's rare and one isn't).
If your characters act in a manner you do not expect when you are writing the BACKGROUND of the world, not current events or the story as it progresses, but the things that have historically happened, then I am in awe of the chaotic nature of your writing style. Full on biblical -Awe-.

I've also stated I won't be arguing the specific loopholes of various concepts or what have you for a given idea or identity to exist in a setting. It's pointless and exists outside of the relevant discussion of writing the campaign setting to include class fantasy. Similarly, I won't be going into the discussion of which character groups will or won't be friends and whether that should be a global rule or a general guideline or something to be ignored entirely 'cause it's all setting and table dependent.
 

Being a Wizard in a society doesn’t mean that much until he does some concrete work.

What kind of work can do a wizard in a society?

The classic loner researcher.
Army officier, for strategy, intel, battlefield control.
Field researcher, for exotic plant, creatures, old ruin
Private investigation
operate an arcane facility. May produce mundane or magic good.
Active field job, hitman, sellsword, bodyguard, bounty hunter, law enforcement
Criminal activity

We can’t put all these wizard in a annual meeting of the Kingdom wizard guild, They are not linked by their class, they do very different jobs with a common tools, spells.
 

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