D&D 5E Sane Magic Item Prices

Chaosmancer

Legend
Well, no. I can do both. Calling out your Strawman doesn't impact anything else.

And you did nothing except call it out.

I can't control them, but you ARE responding to me and it doesn't apply to me.

I'm not asking you to control them. I'm asking to consider the community's response and what that might mean about the community's practices and pre-conceptions.

If I was asking you to control them, I would be demanding you force them to answer. Instead, I am wasting my time repeating myself to you.

Yeah, but I just missed it. It was only what it was. An oversight.

An oversight you refuse to set down, using it to shield you from having to talk about my actual point. Repeatedly, since you keep bringing it up and I don't.
 

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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
That might be true in terms of the AL structure, but that doesn't really address the side of the argument I was pointing out.

If, as seemed to be implied, Mad Mage wasn't designed in regards to adding treasure via AL... then they had a game designed to give treasure that did not give treasure. It clearly wasn't designed to give a lot of treasure, because there was not a lot there.

However, if someone wanted to say that the design for Rime was also low on treasure, and that was just a new design paradigm, again regardless of AL, then it would be fair to point out that Rime was stated to have a different goal.

The fact that we can additionally point to changes in AL that correspond to these too... that is just gravy.
It's two sides of the same coin, they tried the treasure points because AL folks would complain about treasure they couldn't get because of how AL handled treasure before ToA. When that was rejected they just stomped the treasure all over in HCs so AL folks wouldn't care when they couldn't get it since the real treasure was being added back with AL rules. People not running AL however obviously don't have the AL rules to add it back & wotc doesn't mention the kinds of things a non-AL GM should be given guidance on adding for their group. Treasure includes more than just magic items & it wasn't just the magic items tht took the hit.
 

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
Ignoring most of the pointless blathering, let's bring it back to the original topic.

Since the original author hasn't responded to the thread, is there anyone that would be wanting to pick up the torch to update and revise the list for those that want a utility-based pricing system?
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Er...doesn't anyone play Thieves or Assassins in your game, for whom such disguises can sometimes be really handy?

If I was playing a Thief and one of these came available I'd snap it up in a heartbeat.

Not really, and the same effect could be had by having a vest that flips outward to a different color, or just using a disguise kit to turn a scarf to a belt. You wouldn't spend thousands of gold on it.

Yes, but that doesn't mean it'll be in any more or less overall demand than the Disguiser noted above.

It will be less in demand by non-adventurers.

That was my point. A Staff of Fire is very useful for adventurers, less useful and therefore less valuable to most anyone else. But items that would be in high demand by the populace may not be useful, and therefore not valuable to adventurers. And paying a lot of money for something of trivial usefulness is not something that many people want.

Exactly. You get what you get and then are left to make the best of it. Not everything is going to be exactly what you need and-or can make use of, and if someone else might find it spectacularly valuable, sell it!

Sure, if you can.

But the point is when pricing magical items, when having players go out an buy them, then the price has to account for how valuable it is to players in general.

Not in specific, because if that plate is priced high, that makes perfect sense to the players. It is an item they could see the value of if they had different characters, but it has to be something that they can look at and say "that price makes sense for a PC to buy that effect"

Who the frak else are they going to spend it on, particularly when such spending is almost certain to have been done before the PC ever hears of the rest of the party.

Who says that it has to be before they heard of the rest of the party? Maybe the rest of the party gathered because this guy paid them and bought all their gear. That is a potential origin for a party.

Sorry, but if you-as-DM are letting a PC start with a million g.p. then you've already thrown game balance into the toilet, and have no-one to blame but yourself for whatever ugliness comes next - and it will. Trying to put this on the player(s) to sort out is poor form.

No, it isn't.

I have plenty of players who if I told "Yes, you can hire 50 veterans who will win all your fights for you, turning them all into cutscenes where you don't do anything" They would respond with

"That sounds incredibly boring, I don't want to do that."

Sure, some people want to "win DnD" and so they will do it anyways. But there are plenty of people to whom doing things like that isn't something they are even interested in.

Harder to hit is better than easier to hit, and if you've got 30 mercenaries covering you you're not likely to get within striking range anyway.

Yes, harder to hit is better than easier to hit. And they would have gotten harder to hit by level 3 and then again at level 5 and possibly again by level 9.

With Bounded Accuracy, there isn't really a point where you can't have a certain armor before X Level. It just isn't something that really matters. And Full Plate alone isn't going to push you that far over the edge.

Plus, like I said, the player might decide that they don't WANT 30 mercenaries who protect them from any possible harm. They might find that boring and decide that it would be a stupid thing to do.

All of these just point out hard-fails in the 5e ruleset. There should be rules for hiring mercenaries, retainers, and henches; there should be at least some much better guidelines for turning gold into magic items and-or the reverse, etc.

But there isn't... so why should I judge the game on rules that don't exist?

What else do they get paid in? Silver?

Fame, reputation, land, contacts, favors. I never really needed to give the party who was going to stop Orcus from unleashing a necromantic plague anything. They didn't want to die in the plague, so they went and stopped it. Adding "and you find a convenient pile of 50,000 gold next to the altar" really didn't feel like it mattered.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Ignoring most of the pointless blathering, let's bring it back to the original topic.

Since the original author hasn't responded to the thread, is there anyone that would be wanting to pick up the torch to update and revise the list for those that want a utility-based pricing system?
I vaguely remember the original list being built with a lot of feedback on a reddit post. Part of the problem is that a pricing scheme needs to fit within a budget for character power or it teeters between extremes of too quickly blasting the power scale out of wack or being too high a mountain to climb for even minor benefit. With 5e being designed with math based around the unsupported state of "feats & magic items are optional" that leaves only a near razor thin margin of error. Adding a 18 point low power statbuy with an hardcoded array like 12 12 12 11 10 9 (or preferably even less) to phb13 would almost immediately expand that razor to have a few points of wiggle room. Actually doing that though is not really something a GM can introduce without an optional rule from wotc because any attempt is going to face an uphill battle without some kind of variant/optional rule from wotc to point at that prevents 15 15 8 8 8 8 idiot savants.

The math is further complicated because even with a fleshed out price sheet only half of the equation is there without a wealth by level thing.
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A GM could carve out the space from the other side of the screen by adjusting all AC/save values & probably other things I'm not considering but it won't take long for someone to notice that a 12 or 13 is needed to hit a zombie rather than like 8 or something potentially leading back to the initial reaction problem

Something to point at from wotc is needed because "ok guys use 12/12/12/11/10/9 [or an even lower] stat array this game" is going to immediately trigger something close to this kind reaction from their players & that's only going to get worse when the gm effectively starts to explain how they are only nerfing the players badly so they can give it back over the campaign with magic items. No matter how you slice it though, that poor GM's explanation is going to sound uncomfortably close to "I have to hurt you because I love you" Alternately it could stay 27 point pointbuy but have a different set of costs that make anything over that sort of low power array implausibly tough

5e not having a magic item progression to induce churn like 3.x or an item decay system complicates other options like planned obsolescence the costs & expected wealth progression could leverage to exist in a water treading type pressure of keeping up through expenditures rather than just moving to the biggest & best each purchase.

There's also the fact that a +1 is not equal to a +1 & neither are equal to a +1. A +1 longsword or greatsword is going to be a lot more power delivered to a fighter or paladin than a +1 dagger to a rogue or +1 wand to a wizard because of things like multiplicative extra attacks & damage disparities or how that particular +1 works
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And you did nothing except call it out.
Once. The rest of the time I also responded.
I'm not asking you to control them. I'm asking to consider the community's response and what that might mean about the community's practices and pre-conceptions.
We are not representative of the community.

Regardless, the downtime practice, which you continue to ignore, is to have a range of money earned, not auto maximum.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Ignoring most of the pointless blathering, let's bring it back to the original topic.

Since the original author hasn't responded to the thread, is there anyone that would be wanting to pick up the torch to update and revise the list for those that want a utility-based pricing system?
As an observation, the author(s) of the document kind of disappeared soon after publication of the final version. I mean, i know there was discussion at the time, but when I saw it, that discussion was dead and I'm not aware the authors having reengaged ever since.
 

S'mon

Legend
All of these just point out hard-fails in the 5e ruleset. There should be rules for hiring mercenaries, retainers, and henches;

There are some very basic rules - 2 sp/day for an 'unskilled hireling', 2gp/day for a 'skilled hireling'. Skilled means something like the PHB tool proficiencies, so armourers, herbalists, minstrels and the like. The middle class. Unskilled covers everything from day labourers through servants to basic soldiers (that you raise/train/equip yourself, professional mercs would likely be in the Skilled bracket).
 

Ignoring most of the pointless blathering, let's bring it back to the original topic.

Since the original author hasn't responded to the thread, is there anyone that would be wanting to pick up the torch to update and revise the list for those that want a utility-based pricing system?
Theses are the best that I know of:

Blackball’s Treasure (the one I mostly base my own attempts on)


Also, The Angry DM has a nice attempt as well (though he oes factor ririty into it), but the site is down for me right now, so can't link to it.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
People like Max willfully ignore the basic fact that they presume to know better how to play the game. The argument is based on the idea that spending your gold on magic upgrades is a bad way to play the game, and that there is no problem with WotC no longer supporting the playstyle.

And you willfully ignore that TSR era D&D books strongly advised against magical shops.
 

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