D&D 5E Sane Magic Item Prices

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And you willfully ignore that TSR era D&D books strongly advised against magical shops.
Yep. They broke the game in 1e, 2e, 3e and 5e. Not sure about 4th. Some people don't mind games that are broken like that, though, so more power to them. They just shouldn't expect that sort of thing to be supported fully.
 

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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
And you willfully ignore that TSR era D&D books strongly advised against magical shops.
Your willfully ignoring how much pagespace those older editions devoted to players researching & crafing their own magic items in order to make that claim
It looks like you might be using a 2e clip in the 2e dmg the section for players researching fabricating brewing recharging etc magic items spans page 116/117ish to 121/122ish. By comparison it would be generous to say that 5e has barely a paragraph or so
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Your willfully ignoring how much pagespace those older editions devoted to players researching & crafing their own magic items in order to make that claim
It looks like you might be using a 2e clip in the 2e dmg the section for players researching fabricating brewing recharging etc magic items spans page 116/117ish to 121/122ish. By comparison it would be generous to say that 5e has barely a paragraph or so
Dungeon Master Option: High-Level Campaigns (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 2nd Edition, Revised) if you want to know... where several pages were devoted to that very topic. I did not "ignore that". Having the PCs go on an adventure to find/make the gizmo of unlimited doodads is not the same as having magical shops.

Also, Xanathar has more info on creating magical items does it not?
 

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And you willfully ignore that TSR era D&D books strongly advised against magical shops.
But we're not talking about TSR editions, for f***s sake! We're talking about WotC D&D. How many editions has WotC created for D&D? 3. And for two out of those, magic item pricing was an integrated part. Now it is not. People missing that points that out. They then get told what they want is badwrongfun and worse.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Dungeon Master Option: High-Level Campaigns (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 2nd Edition, Revised) if you want to know... where several pages were devoted to that very topic. I did not "ignore that". Having the PCs go on an adventure to find/make the gizmo of unlimited doodads is not the same as having magical shops.

Also, Xanathar has more info on creating magical items does it not?
the xge "crafting" rules are a farce designed more to make sure a crafty player crafting stuff is an interesting opportunity for everyone but that player & comparing them to the 2e guidance on magic items & crafting is even worse. Magic item shops provide a GM options to avoid needing to be too involved in making every instance of crafting into a campaign hijacking fork from those more involved crafting options. The rules in 5e & xge fail at both of those paths in the fork giving the worst of both worlds in an edition that kicks things off by designing so feats & magic items are unsupported "optional" things that immediately throw off the system's math in awful ways the moment either are used.
 


Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
the xge "crafting" rules are a farce designed more to make sure a crafty player crafting stuff is an interesting opportunity for everyone but that player & comparing them to the 2e guidance on magic items & crafting is even worse. Magic item shops provide a GM options to avoid needing to be too involved in making every instance of crafting into a campaign hijacking fork from those more involved crafting options. The rules in 5e & xge fail at both of those paths in the fork giving the worst of both worlds in an edition that kicks things off by designing so feats & magic items are unsupported "optional" things that immediately throw off the system's math in awful ways the moment either are used.

I have to admit that the xanathar rules weren't... great. For me it's not a big concern because I've internalized a lot of the old guidelines - I don't even "need" Xanathar's rules/guidance really. But for a newer GM? yeah...

BTW, this is an aside, but that high level campaign book was super good. I remember reading it thinking that it applies to ... any campaign above level 4? (ie most of them).
 

Ok, but people like me who think that magical item market is bad ARE TOLD WE ARE BADWRONGFUN.
No, you get told you are badwrongfun when you don't want other people to have a proper rules supported option of including magic item pricing, while you could just decide not to use it.

Also, we are not talking item market per se, but pricing for items relatively to each other. Not for what endless water might bring in a desert vs Clear Spring Valley, and not magic Walmarts. But for the hard choices players must make when deciding what to spend their gold on. Hell, it can be just as meta as recovering all HP on a long rest, and doesn't need to include any shopping at all. So the argument against magic shoppes doesn't fly.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Ok, but people like me who think that magical item market is bad ARE TOLD WE ARE BADWRONGFUN. This argument doesn't fly.
No it works out fine. There's a pretty significant difference between not using an existing well developed rule that you don't like & not having well developed rules for something you want to use because wotc has deemed it such badwrongfun that it must not sully the pages of 5e with supporting rules & rules structures needed for it.

I have to admit that the xanathar rules weren't... great. For me it's not a big concern because I've internalized a lot of the old guidelines - I don't even "need" Xanathar's rules/guidance really. But for a newer GM? yeah...

BTW, this is an aside, but that high level campaign book was super good. I remember reading it thinking that it applies to ... any campaign above level 4? (ie most of them).
I can pull from 3.x or even the old 2e stuff because I ran them, but the fact that 5e has both unsupported "optional" magic items and complete trash guidelines for a less experienced GM that can't fix the game to handle magic items while confidently building the missing rules structures when I'm a player at their table.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
But we're not talking about TSR editions, for f***s sake! We're talking about WotC D&D. How many editions has WotC created for D&D? 3. And for two out of those, magic item pricing was an integrated part. Now it is not. People missing that points that out. They then get told what they want is badwrongfun and worse.
And for at least 1 of those(3rd) it made magic items a joke. PCs always picked the same few super optimal items and cheesed their way through encounters, having an even easier time than just the class abilities made it. Magic mart in 3e broke that system even worse than anything else in the game. CoDzilla was a much huger issue than it should have been due to stat enhancing items that PCs could just buy. They drove DCs through the roof.
 

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