D&D 5E How do you feel about games without Feats and Multiclassing?

How do you feel about games without Feats and Multiclassing?

  • I'll only play WITH Feats and Multiclassing.

    Votes: 28 24.1%
  • I'll only play WITHOUT Feats and Multiclassing.

    Votes: 10 8.6%
  • I'll play either way.

    Votes: 63 54.3%
  • It's complicated.

    Votes: 30 25.9%
  • Cake.

    Votes: 10 8.6%

I dunno, taking out feats and multiclassing would remove whatever little customization the character building game has to offer. Plus, some of the classes like Fighters and Rogues would be really bland without feats. A pure martial like Champion or Thief would literally have 0 decisions to make when leveling up, barring which ASI to increase. That's not an RPG for me. Role-playing is important, but so is the Game aspect of it.
 

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But I'd be skeptical of a group that feels the need to reduce the amount of character customization in a D&D 5e game.

That's the crux of the whole matter for me. I'm sure the game is fine without multiclassing or feats, but I'm going to be wary of a group that insists we play it that way, so I'll probably never have that experience.

If somehow one of my established groups suddenly collectively turned against feats and multiclassing that would surprise me, but it's not something likely to sour me on playing with them. I don't care that much about those things, and I certainly have character ideas that don't require them I'm happy to use for the next campaign.

But if I was joining some new, unfamiliar group and was told "we don't use those 'optional' rules" (people opposed to using them usually feel compelled to remind you that they are optional, as if D&D has any mandatory elements) that would give me pause. Firstly, because I personally would be advocating for allowing these player options so maybe we're not on the same page or maybe they're going to ignore my input. Secondly, because I think the reasons for not using these options are often bad, having to do with overbroad solutions to specific problems, someone trying to impose their idiosyncratic vision of what the game should be on how other people play, or a misguided belief that, stripped of all its "options", 5e is suddenly a carefully-balanced game where the CR system actually works or whatever. Thirdly, because I think when player options are banned it is often the influence of the DM rather than the table as a whole, and when a DM, who already has absolute authority over every non-player creature in the game, feels they need to also put a bunch of broad, blanket limitations on how player characters can develop, I do not generally consider that an encouraging sign for how the campaign will go with them.
 

That's the crux of the whole matter for me. I'm sure the game is fine without multiclassing or feats, but I'm going to be wary of a group that insists we play it that way, so I'll probably never have that experience.

If somehow one of my established groups suddenly collectively turned against feats and multiclassing that would surprise me, but it's not something likely to sour me on playing with them. I don't care that much about those things, and I certainly have character ideas that don't require them I'm happy to use for the next campaign.

But if I was joining some new, unfamiliar group and was told "we don't use those 'optional' rules" (people opposed to using them usually feel compelled to remind you that they are optional, as if D&D has any mandatory elements) that would give me pause. Firstly, because I personally would be advocating for allowing these player options so maybe we're not on the same page or maybe they're going to ignore my input. Secondly, because I think the reasons for not using these options are often bad, having to do with overbroad solutions to specific problems, someone trying to impose their idiosyncratic vision of what the game should be on how other people play, or a misguided belief that, stripped of all its "options", 5e is suddenly a carefully-balanced game where the CR system actually works or whatever. Thirdly, because I think when player options are banned it is often the influence of the DM rather than the table as a whole, and when a DM, who already has absolute authority over every non-player creature in the game, feels they need to also put a bunch of broad, blanket limitations on how player characters can develop, I do not generally consider that an encouraging sign for how the campaign will go with them.

The vibe train cuts both ways.

I would be very hesitant to play with someone like you because of all of these judgments and the need to frame the actually and truly optional rules as default and 'banned' if not used.

There is a reason they're called out as optional.

Yes, technically something else like ability scores are 'optional' too in that they could be houseruled out but that's not what people actually mean by those words.

This sort of twisting words to find technical definitions that suit your desires is the exact sort of thing I want to avoid in people I play with.

So it seems like everyone is happy here.
 

That's the crux of the whole matter for me. I'm sure the game is fine without multiclassing or feats, but I'm going to be wary of a group that insists we play it that way, so I'll probably never have that experience.

If somehow one of my established groups suddenly collectively turned against feats and multiclassing that would surprise me, but it's not something likely to sour me on playing with them. I don't care that much about those things, and I certainly have character ideas that don't require them I'm happy to use for the next campaign.

But if I was joining some new, unfamiliar group and was told "we don't use those 'optional' rules" (people opposed to using them usually feel compelled to remind you that they are optional, as if D&D has any mandatory elements) that would give me pause. Firstly, because I personally would be advocating for allowing these player options so maybe we're not on the same page or maybe they're going to ignore my input. Secondly, because I think the reasons for not using these options are often bad, having to do with overbroad solutions to specific problems, someone trying to impose their idiosyncratic vision of what the game should be on how other people play, or a misguided belief that, stripped of all its "options", 5e is suddenly a carefully-balanced game where the CR system actually works or whatever. Thirdly, because I think when player options are banned it is often the influence of the DM rather than the table as a whole, and when a DM, who already has absolute authority over every non-player creature in the game, feels they need to also put a bunch of broad, blanket limitations on how player characters can develop, I do not generally consider that an encouraging sign for how the campaign will go with them.
IMO, sometimes less is more
 


The problem is 5e doesn't have a big sliding THAC0 scale or +5 weapons. It's assumed that by about level 10 or so, you'll have at least a +4 bonus to relevant rolls from your main stat. I've seen many characters stop at 18 and be absolutely fine, but if your main stat is 16 or below (and a 16 is impossible without a racial bonus!), you'll struggle.
Eh IME you won’t really struggle with a 16. Game needs more half feats, but otherwise they’re fine.
Max deadlift for somebody with 20 STR is 600 lbs. That's not even close to freak of nature territory. Here's an NFL player doing a 660 lb deadlift:


The world record for snatch (going from ground to overhead) is 484 lbs, so if 20 STR "lifting" 600 lbs means that, sure, you're a superhero.

Same thing for a high Constitution score. According to the rules, a human can hold their breath underwater for a number of minutes equal to 1 + their Constitution modifier. So a person with 20 Con would be able to hold their breath underwater for 6 minutes. Nice.

Well.

Tom Cruise trained extensively to hold his breath for six and a half minutes for the movie "Mission: Impossible - Rogue Nation", and Kate Winslet held her breath for over 7 minutes for shooting underwater scenes for "Avatar 2." And the world record is 22 minutes, set by Dane Stig Severinsen. (That's a Constitution score of 54!)

Yep, an attribute of 20 isn’t what it used to be.
I’d love to see a thread exploring what the maximums IRL for physical activities are, and rescaling those activities in 5e, perhaps with the assumption that 20 is slightly more than what the max irl human can do.
 

Maxing out your main stats seems so ubiquitous that the "choice" between ASIs and feats feels like one of the failed experiments of 5e, to me. I like the concept of more robust feats that don't require clunky trees and arbitrary prereqs, so 5e feats are an improvement over 3x and 4e for me in that regard. I'm just ready to go back to just letting people get their ASIs as a standard part of progression AND get feats that flesh out perks that lay outside of class features.
 

Maxing out your main stats seems so ubiquitous that the "choice" between ASIs and feats feels like one of the failed experiments of 5e, to me. I like the concept of more robust feats that don't require clunky trees and arbitrary prereqs, so 5e feats are an improvement over 3x and 4e for me in that regard. I'm just ready to go back to just letting people get their ASIs as a standard part of progression AND get feats that flesh out perks that lay outside of class features.
What we have been doing for the last couple years is, you get a feat at level 1 (or supernatural gift from Theros if appropriate, but no one has taken them yet), and every time your class gives an ASI, you get a feat and +1 to any one stat.
 



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