D&D General Alignment: the problem is Chaos

Think of it in moral philosophy structures. The first axis being how one relates to their morality, and the second being what they value.

Lawful Characters are Deontologists. They hold that there are certain rules that you hold to and breaking them is wrong. Laws may not always reflect those rules, but in a just society they should. Even when the law isn't entirely appropriate, you may try to follow it until it can be appropriately altered through societal channels, rather than ignoring your inclinations. You're also more likely to recognize and accept social divisions, even when they're uncomfortable.

Chaotic Characters are Consequentialists. Rather than having a strict series of laws to cover each situation, you focus in on doing what feels right in the moment to achieve your goals in a moral manner. Rules aren't automatically "Made to be Broken" and you'll follow them if they're not onerous. But you're more likely to break those same rules than a Deontologist to achieve what you believe to be right. And those social divisions? You recognize them, you just don't -care-.

And neutral characters have a structure somewhere between those two positions. They hold themselves to some personal or societal rules quite strongly, but most rules can be bent or even ignored when the situation calls for it.

Then the second axis determines what you consider to be valued within your moral philosophy.

Good people are altruistic, caring, supportive. They believe that society is working at it's best when it helps everyone.

Evil people are self-interested, uncaring, and unwilling to support others without returns. They believe that society is working at it's best when it helps -them-.

Neutral people are in the middle.

Just rename almost 40 years of cultural identification from Lawful to Deontological and Chaotic to Consequential!

Problem solved!

Bonus Points: People learning about D&D get a very basic Moral Philosophy Lesson to go with their growing knowledge of feudal systems, historical weapons, political intrigue, and stuff!
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

I never read Anderson, so I cant compare.

But Moorcock Chaos is definitely Chaotic Evil, and I always find it difficult to use as an example for D&D.

Moorcock is something like CE versus L, or maybe even CE versus LE.



Also, Moorcock Chaos is more about shapeshifting randomness that obliterates individuality.

D&D might refer to Moorcock Chaos as "chaotic stupid", but definitely an Evil version of it.

I think of it more as the extremes of Law and Chaos being alien to mortals, which are much closer to Neutrality.

I'm also reminded that late 4E introduced the concept of a Lawful counterpart to its more Chaotic take on the Far Realm. While the World Axis cosmology initially lacked Mechanus, late in the edition's life it opted to create an Accordant Expanse with Mechanus as its centerpiece.

The Accordant Expanse is an anomalous plane, similar in basic nature to the Far Realm, but unnaturally structured and orderly, in comparison to the fluid, chaotic and amorphous nature of the Far Realm. It's still not a place you want to visit by any means; its denizens claim that the Accordant Expanse is the "true" universe, and all other existence is a failed construct of their invention, a, quote, "malignant wasteland of chaos and emotion". Thusly, those who managed to look upon the Accordant Expanse find it as terrifying as the Far Realm.
Source

So yeah, 4E went from "Mechanus doesn't exist anymore" to "Mechanus is the centerpiece of a universe of pure Law that is as terrifying to mortals as the designated Lovecraftian Eldritch Horror plane". It's been a while, but I think I recall reading a detail that lower-ranked modrons lack the ability to perceive anything other than what their higher-ranked superiors deem is necessary for them to accomplish their designated tasks.

Sure would be great for productivity IRL if your boss could just deny you the ability to see or hear anything that could distract you from your job, huh?
 
Last edited:

Because the randomness obliterates individuality, I would actually describe Moorcock Chaos as the opposite of Chaotic.

The difference between randomness, chaotic, and entropy in the physics/math, philosophical, and common definitions doesn't seem to help.

Am I remembering right that maximum entropy is the state of uniform spread (so I picture an infinite gray fog with nothing in it) while the other extreme is a point mass (so everything compressed into a single point - is that like a black hole?).
 
Last edited:

For me, I characterize the Aberrant of the Far Realm as a subtype of Fiend.

Fiend
• LE: devils
• CE: demons
• NE: aberrants

It seems to me, aberrants are pure Evil, and happily exploit both Chaotic individualism and Lawful collectivism, whichever happens to do the most harm possible in the moment.
 

The difference between randomness, chaotic, and entropy in the physics/math, philosophical, and common definitions doesn't seem to help.

Am I remembering right that maximum entropy is the state of uniform spread (so I picture an infinite gray fog with nothing in it) while the other extreme is a point mass (so everything compressed into a single point - is that like a black hole?).

An interesting physics approach involving Entropy=Order in the sense freezing (unmoving) heat death:

Chaos = the sun in the center of the solar system, whose atomic structure is agitated, and unpredictable
Order = Pluto at the edge of the solar system, whose atomic structure is mainly frozen, and predictable

Life = the ideal harmony in the middle
 

Just read the OP, and I thought there were some good ideas in it, but a central problem in the post is that it reinforces something from earlier editions of D&D, which 3e and 5e changed to a way that makes sense and works way better.

In early editions, the “average” (NPC) human was Lawful. Maybe even Good. This was a complete mess, because then we having varying degrees of divergence from the norm. No wonder there is a lot of confusion about what counts as Neutral versus being Evil (or Chaotic) when the differences are just matters of degree away from the norm (meaning the norm most players, presumably being human, would be familiar with) in the same direction!
In early editions, there was no Good. Just Law and Chaos.

If you take Lawful vs Chaotic to be basically "settler vs nomadic" culture, then humans being Settlers by default, while Orcs are Nomads makes sense.

It does make the Lawful vs Chaotic battles a lot less about good vs evil as well, and even makes the LG/LN/LE, NG/NN/NE, CG/CN/CE axis make sense without either L/C being basket cases.

As examples:

LG: Order of self-sacrificing Paladins, who follow complex moral rules as part of their institution.
LN: Dwarven kingdom of Guides, where jobs are inherited.
LE: An expanding slave-powered empire

NG: Naval power city, defended by mountains and their fleet, attempting to stop the slave trade.
NN: Druidic society, mainly concerned with using rituals to keep the balance of nature.
NE: Smugglers port with extensive slums, where life is cheap.

CG: Forest dwelling elves fighting trying to defend the world against a dark lord, but they lack the numbers.
CN: Plains horse nomads clans who trade, raid and engage in ridiculously huge and awesome athletic games.
CE: Gnollish pirates and sea raiders.
 

Thanks again everyone for the great discussion. I've been trying to keep up, but it's getting a little tougher. You all talk a lot! :)

One thing I want to clarify is my view on Neutral. I view it more as "indifference or unimportance" rather than "in between. I understand how the latter seems intuitive, but I'd like to make the case that it's not.

Consider a true European Medieval mindset. As many writers have pointed out (and I'm sure many of you know), very few people play D&D in such a setting, not really. That's because the medieval mindset is WEIRD. I strongly recommend watching Bergman's The Virgin Spring. It's like watching hyper-religious human aliens, their worldview is just that anti-modern. Such a mindset is a strong example of Lawful Neutral. In fact, I'd just call it Lawful, because Good and Evil simply doesn't enter into it. What matters is your place in the feudal order and your place in the religious order. Trying to discuss the morality of serfdom or mutilation punishments would be met will blank stares. The law & order is the order of things.

The other Neutral alignments are similar. CN: my code matters, not its impact others; NG: the wellbeing of others matter, not your laws or code; NE: Only I matter. True Neutral means none of it matters. Human concerns about morals and ethics are all artificial. Nature gets on fine without then. And thus you get to Druidism. And yes, True Neutral is another very weird alignment.
 

Thanks again everyone for the great discussion. I've been trying to keep up, but it's getting a little tougher. You all talk a lot! :)

One thing I want to clarify is my view on Neutral. I view it more as "indifference or unimportance" rather than "in between. I understand how the latter seems intuitive, but I'd like to make the case that it's not.

Consider a true European Medieval mindset. As many writers have pointed out (and I'm sure many of you know), very few people play D&D in such a setting, not really. That's because the medieval mindset is WEIRD. I strongly recommend watching Bergman's The Virgin Spring. It's like watching hyper-religious human aliens, their worldview is just that anti-modern. Such a mindset is a strong example of Lawful Neutral. In fact, I'd just call it Lawful, because Good and Evil simply doesn't enter into it. What matters is your place in the feudal order and your place in the religious order. Trying to discuss the morality of serfdom or mutilation punishments would be met will blank stares. The law & order is the order of things.

The other Neutral alignments are similar. CN: my code matters, not its impact others; NG: the wellbeing of others matter, not your laws or code; NE: Only I matter. True Neutral means none of it matters. Human concerns about morals and ethics are all artificial. Nature gets on fine without then. And thus you get to Druidism. And yes, True Neutral is another very weird alignment.
I would call that alignment Amoral rather than Neutral.

4e would call it Unaligned. Separate from Neutral.
 


I view Neutral as a mix, some days do something Good and some days do something Evil, which is why most humans are Neutral.

Unaligned is about lacking the brain capacity to understand ethics.
 

Remove ads

Top